300hp N/A v6, how to.

fazm83 · Jul 27, 2005

Do you think the internals on the 4.0 are weaker than the 3.8? Some guy twin turbo'ed his 3.8 with completely stock internals and is running high 10's low 11's (i promise thats more than 300rwhp, i think its a tad more than 500)

5-SpeedStallion · Jul 27, 2005

NJstangpilot said:
Chris,

I, too, am no expert on the pros and cons of engine induction, which is why I am posing these questions. However, I believe I read somewhere that a modest 6 psi or so of boost will not harm most engines. The head gasket may need to be swapped for a tougher version, but I doubt the rods/crank/pistons will require this for such a low boost. Granted, if you start shoving 10+ psi down the manifold, you will probably need to beef up the internals, but 6-7 should be OK for the stock components.

I know turbos are notoriously unreliable (15,000+ rpm at exhaust manifold temps will do that...) but superchargers tend to be more reliable. Unfortunately, many of the centrifugal types suffer the same lag as the turbos but w/o the high rpm performance. The roots and screw types tend to be very expensive and often quite large.

Lastly, I don't think the internals will need to be upgraded on the path to 300 N/A HP from this engine. The block is iron and I believe the internals could handle 300 crank HP w/o any problems. I *think*. 300 rwhp is another story...that might require stronger bits.

First, I'd imagine you should be able to easily run 6psi (probably much more) w/o internals or anything like that, as long as you're intelligent in the way you drive AND have a good tune, which is of ultimate importance.

Second, turbo's are notoriously unreliable, but that doesn't mean it's true. They have a hard life, but buy a good one, build the setup right, take care of it, and it won't let you down any sooner than a SC... and it will make you significantly MORE power.

Third, a properly sized turbo won't have any lag in the powerband. Most turbo 3.8's designed for street use make full boost at 2500-3000 rpm. If you're trying to go fast @ any RPM less than that, you're not going anywhere whether you have a SC, Turbo, or N/A. You will have power everywhere you want it with a properly sized turbo, and you won't be in boost when you're just cruising, which is a good thing for gas mileage.

fazm83 said:
Do you think the internals on the 4.0 are weaker than the 3.8? Some guy twin turbo'ed his 3.8 with completely stock internals and is running high 10's low 11's (i promise thats more than 300rwhp, i think its a tad more than 500)

That would be Justin Starkey of Velocity Mustang Performance... the guy who will be tuning my car once the Heads/Cam/Rollers are in, btw.... but anyway.... The car is making somewhere in the 500's whp, IIRC, and yes, he has gone 10.9@128. The car has the STOCK LONGBLOCK... No new internals, cam, heads, anything... just Twin Turbo's @ ~17 psi, more fuel, and a little suspension.

So, I'm not sure if the 4.0 is going to be able to handle that or not... my guess would be "not" but that's just because most cars can't. I guess someone will have to try it and find out... It's important to point out here that Justin is a professional tuner, and the TUNE is why his engine is still in one piece. So, who's it going to be? Who's going to go for an all out N/A 05 V6 first... or maybe go for 17psi on their brand new engine?

fazm83 · Jul 27, 2005

I will probably go the N/A route unless one of these kits (SC or TURBO) comes out real soon. I would love the turbo kit because of the 'pshhhhhh' blow off, but now ive seen SC that do the same thing, so im in a pickle.

If i put TT or SC on at 12psi and fried a piston, thats just an excuse to rebuild with forged internals. Since im a mechanic and have a shop, i dont have to worry bout labor hours, just parts.

I do think it would be cool to run 12psi on a stock motor but i would probably keep it in the 8 range and only bump it to 12 on the track.

Wonder what kind of power you can get out of the 4.0 with rebuilt engine and power adder

MSP · Jul 30, 2005

No one has apparently heard about this yet.. Apparently, we can put on Some Cosworth heads onto our motor, and this will allow us to run 24v as opposed to 12v, plus, add another CAM to our engine, making it a DOHC 24v V6, as opposed to a SOHC 12v V6..

Guys, I think this is the first thing that needs to be checked into.. This is definaltey something which need discussion..

http://www.3.8mustang.com/forum/showthread.php?t=107254

Make sure you read past the first few BS responses!.. It gets better the further away from the first post you get.. LOL!

Here is a taste!!

Hi guys,

I have been doing reasearch on the conversion for the past year and I am getting close to building a 4.0l with 2.9l cosworth 24v heads. There are two versions of the cosworths in Europe (BOA and BOB). after close examination the BoB seems to be the most likley canidate for the conversion.

As to strighten up the power gain confusion, you wont just gain a few ponies. People in europe have been punching these blocks out from 2.9 to 3.5l with a mild port job keeping them natural aspirated with the stock cams and seeing power in the 350 hp relm. There are even some who have modified their 2.9l greatly, with installing superchargers and nitrous oxide and have seen power in the excess of 620 hp. From the factory these heads flow more than what the 2.9l could use. When cosworth first developed the 24v motor, it's proto-type version developed 300 ponies and was detuned for the street with smaller cams in order to pass the 83' USA smog regulations.

I am currently working with someone in europe on the project, developing the camchain guides and midshaft for the motor. Once we have all the buggs worked out on CAD I'll move on to building it some time this summer. I hope I was helpfull to all.

fazm83 · Jul 30, 2005

I read about this like 5 months back it seems, but i stopped checking because i wasnt seeing any progress in it. The only bad part about this is you would have to buy new heads, no core, no P&P just the cost of reman'ed heads and a core, which could be quite expensive. (ive seen 4v cobra heads go new for $1700 each, and $700 reman)

MSP · Jul 30, 2005

fazm83 said:
I read about this like 5 months back it seems, but i stopped checking because i wasnt seeing any progress in it. The only bad part about this is you would have to buy new heads, no core, no P&P just the cost of reman'ed heads and a core, which could be quite expensive. (ive seen 4v cobra heads go new for $1700 each, and $700 reman)

Yes but the catch to this is, it sounds like out of the box, with just the replacement of the heads alone we could be at 300+ RWHP.. This doesnt include anyother mods.. So lets say you go with a reman set of heads, based on your pricing your at $1400 bucks.. It sure does sound like this subject actually needs its own thread.. Having the ability to actually convert our engines from SOHC to a DOHC is perhaps the biggest news of all the subjects we have talked about.. The possible power gain from this type of effort is extremely eye opening.. This subject has been left un-discussed, but is perhaps one of the best mods to comlpete.. Even better than going with the SC..

The question is, if in 1 yr you were to complete this mod, and the next year add a SuperCharger, you would conceivably have a very nice engine setup..

I think you should have mentioned this months ago Fazm83.. If you already knew our engines had this capability.. This is huge info!!

fazm83 · Jul 30, 2005

I would have, except i felt like it would never happen, just lots of talk and trials. If they actually do get this setup, then man... thatd be awesome. I dont know bout 300rwhp from just the heads, but definately with the heads, headers, exhaust, intake, tune, and possibley injectors.

MSP · Jul 30, 2005

fazm83 said:
I would have, except i felt like it would never happen, just lots of talk and trials. If they actually do get this setup, then man... thatd be awesome. I dont know bout 300rwhp from just the heads, but definately with the heads, headers, exhaust, intake, tune, and possibley injectors.

I would say yes of course get it tuned, so the computer knows its allowed to give more here and there.. Also, injectors.. But the inake, and exhaust could stay..

But I am totally interested in this for sure, sense I had no idea previously.. In regards to talk, thats what me must do before spending a bunch of money you know. Its better to discuss the entire spectrum completely..

But yeah Fazm83, sounds like a mouthfull.. Making the engine DOHC is nuts.. Those heads should not be hard to come by right?

Actually, is it required to swap manifolds? I think so, so maybe the intake..

fazm83 · Jul 30, 2005

Im sure the intake manifold would have to change, which may cause a problem with the throttle body, unless someone fabricates one to fit the same throttle body. Because of the electric throttle body its not like you can just go get another one to fit a diff manifold. Just lots of issues with this, and i just want to see it when its actually in development, that would be awesome. Just like watchin the m112 project (m90 too) on the 4.0

Chris_NY · Jul 31, 2005

someone had mentioned that Dyno simulation software earlier....

I have a copy of that ... but the problem is it's an older copy so...

It has the 4.0L but it does not have presets for the proper heads/cam etc..

I did my best to get it as close to what Ford says it should be stock 210/240. (the program computes to the fly not to the wheels) I used a cam profile that they said came off a 1996 version of the engine and I got pretty close. But if I knew the exact flow characteristics of the heads and the exact stats on the cam and all that, then I could plug the numbers into the program and probably get a more correct answer.

I set the bore/stroke/intake and exhaust valve sizes basically all stats I could gather from the information off the ford site. I searched online to see how much CFM a 65MM Throttle body would flow (consensus seems about 600 or 616)

and I came up with this ..

RPM .... HP ... Torque
...........(Fly)...(Fly)..........
2000....73......191
2500....97......204
3000....130....227
3500....160....240
4000....181....238
4500....197....229
5000....205....215
5500....204....195
6000....195....171

Anyway I was just playing around and as you can see the HP/Torque curves are happening almost right. The Torque is hitting it's peak exactly@ 3500 ... The Horsepower is not correct, it's a little low but it hits it's peak pretty much where it should according to the Ford site. (5250)

It's just all in fun but I wish I knew the exact information to put into the program. Is this information printed anyplace in detail? If someone could direct me where to find it I would appreciate it. Optimally if someone has a Cam file and Cylinder Head Airflow config file that will work with Dynosim and you could send it to me that would really be best.

I want to get it perfect to what Ford says it should be stock before I play
around with adding and changing things

(I know the program is probably BS but it's still fun to play around with LOL)

fazm83 · Jul 31, 2005

which program is it that you have? i downloaded a trial version of digital dyno but its horible. i wanna know what the difference is between the $40 programs and the $700 programs.

Jenns01TA · Aug 1, 2005

The sim software I mentioned was from these guys http://www.proracingsim.com/

As for the difference Faz, check it out, it is amazing what the high end packages can show and depict. It is a true engineering and redesign software. The difference between something like this and a $40 package is akin to the difference between a Shelby Cobra and a V-6.

Nice brainstorming fellas. Keep 'er up!

Jenn

fazm83 · Aug 1, 2005

I know but the one i download you can put in lift variation, cams, everything, and get dyno numbers with a graph, est quarter mile times, etc. The only difference is you had to put them in manually, is that the diff between that and an expensive one?

Chris_NY · Aug 1, 2005

Yea proracingsim makes all the programs .. I aquired a copy of Dyno 2003 protools edition. I think it's on that site for like 199 .. but like I said you need to know pretty exact facts about the engine in the car to make an accurate simulation of it on the computer.

--EDIT--

I just noticed that they have a disk of cam files up to year 2005 it's only 49 bucks .. that would probably have the right cam profile ... *ponder* that would solve one of my issues pretty easily

Black2001GT · Aug 5, 2005

wow, just wow man

0LASERGT1 · Aug 6, 2005

...........

Beau · Aug 6, 2005

its gonna be a challenge to get that much power out of a v6. remember, the powerplant wasn't designed to make power, just get reasonable gas mileage and be reliable. with all the cash being spent on modding a 6, it makes more sense to save up a bit longer and buy a GT.

Dan_Soprano · Aug 6, 2005

fazm83 said:
wow, if you could get another 180hp at the wheels, thats like 360 total to the ground. That would be one crazy N/A 4.0 v6 lol. With that setup you should be capable of running low 12s all day long. (assuming that a gt with 360rwhp could run 12.4 easily because i have seen ones with 305rwhp run 12.7, and the v6 weighs couple hundred lbs less). Do this and then lose a hundred or two lbs by shedding your car of unnecessary weight, and you might be a 11.99 car on a perfect day.

bro, thats stock 03 Cobra power your talking about. I DOUBT that ou are going to get that out of a N/A 6 banger without dumping SERIOUS cash into it. Either way, you'll never get that power N/A on pump gas out of a ford v-6.

fazm83 · Aug 6, 2005

I've seen N/A 3.5 liters pushing 325rwhp on 100 octane gas, why cant a 4.0 push 360?
and yes, that would not be a cheap route to go at all, that was never claimed to be cheap. Ive seen 8 liter engines push 1000rwhp on 116 octane gas N/A (one was at the dragstrip last night)

also i never said 180 more to the wheels was for sure, realistically probably around 140-150 is max with N/A before boring or stroking the motor.

Black2001GT · Aug 6, 2005

fazm83 said:
I've seen N/A 3.5 liters pushing 325rwhp on 100 octane gas, why cant a 4.0 push 360?
and yes, that would not be a cheap route to go at all, that was never claimed to be cheap. Ive seen 8 liter engines push 1000rwhp on 116 octane gas N/A (one was at the dragstrip last night)

also i never said 180 more to the wheels was for sure, realistically probably around 140-150 is max with N/A before boring or stroking the motor.

That 3.5 liter you saw was probably a Nissan V-6 which was built for power unlike a Ford V-6.

Be proud of your car. Understand your car cannot compete with a GT when it comes to performance. A Modded V-6 cannot compete mod for mod with a GT. The same can be said about GTs vs Cobras.

I did not come here to start a flame war, I really did not, I was just trying to understand why people purchase a 4 cyl econobox or a v-6 econobox then try to turn it into a performance car.

300hp N/A v6, how to.

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