351W 400hp??

[Z06killinSBF]

Well, I got thinking and doing price checks, looks like I may not do a roller cam. With $400ish lifters and $200ish cam it gets really expensive for my budget. I will probably stick to the original plan and get a solid lifter flat tappet cam kit. I knew the smaller motors had the lifter difference I just didn't know about the 351 so thanks.

 

[Hack]

I gotta ask...why is it that I can make about 420 HP (closer to 440 HP uncorked) with a 331 that has fully ported 351w heads that makes usable power to nearly 7000 and he can't make 400 HP with a 351 with the same heads?

My cam is not radical either.

I know of someone who has a 393 or 408 with ported DOOEs and he is making somewhere in the 440 HP range. There is so much more to a street/strip engine making good power than heads with big ports.

Got a dyno slip? What compression ratio are you running? Pump gas? What cam are you running?

Care to share with the class?

I didn't say 400 HP couldn't be done, I said for a rookie porter I wouldn't guarantee he would make that much and that he would do better with aluminum heads. Do you disagree?

 

[ForceFed70]

Got a dyno slip? What compression ratio are you running? Pump gas? What cam are you running?

Care to share with the class?

I didn't say 400 HP couldn't be done, I said for a rookie porter I wouldn't guarantee he would make that much and that he would do better with aluminum heads. Do you disagree?

Those numbers seem too good to be true.... why does your combo make 100hp more than thousands of other identical (from the sounds of it) builds?

 

[bnickel]

Those numbers seem too good to be true.... why does your combo make 100hp more than thousands of other identical (from the sounds of it) builds?

IIRC, his engine build was detailed out on the VMF with dyno numbers and all.

 

[Hack]

Sounds like a wicked build and I bet it's fun to drive. Not everyone would want to use that cam on the street.

And you are topping 400 HP right at the peak over 6,000 rpms. Most people run their engines between 2,000 and 5,000 rpm - so I wouldn't tell someone else to expect 400 HP from a build like this. If they put a lower duration hydro cam with under 0.5" lift in the engine and keep it under 6,000 - they probably won't see 400 HP from 352 cubes. Maybe with a 408 stroker they would come close.

What I've seen is it's typically not that easy to get significantly over 1 HP per cube on a pump-gas, pushrod engine with cast iron heads in the "normal" street rpm range. That is the main reason why I told the original poster not to count on 400 HP from a 352 cubic inch engine with iron heads. You might bolt on a set of 351C 4V heads and do it with the right parts, but everything would have to be just right.

 

[bnickel]

Sounds like a wicked build and I bet it's fun to drive. Not everyone would want to use that cam on the street.

And you are topping 400 HP right at the peak over 6,000 rpms. Most people run their engines between 2,000 and 5,000 rpm - so I wouldn't tell someone else to expect 400 HP from a build like this. If they put a lower duration hydro cam with under 0.5" lift in the engine and keep it under 6,000 - they probably won't see 400 HP from 352 cubes. Maybe with a 408 stroker they would come close.

What I've seen is it's typically not that easy to get significantly over 1 HP per cube on a pump-gas, pushrod engine with cast iron heads in the "normal" street rpm range. That is the main reason why I told the original poster not to count on 400 HP from a 352 cubic inch engine with iron heads. You might bolt on a set of 351C 4V heads and do it with the right parts, but everything would have to be just right.

oh man, most guys i know who have a street/strip or street racer run the motors right up to 6000-6500 rpm depending on whether they've built a small block or a big block. i also know guy who've built 8500 rpm 283 chevies stuffed in little monzas running 5.36 gears who have drive them on the street and fully legal as well. with a 5 speed trans it's about like driving a car with 3.50-3.73 gears around town.

until a few years ago, when stroker kits became cheap enough, people around here either built screaming little small block or stump pulling big blocks, with a few building screaming ass big blocks. ever ride in an 84 chevy truck with a 7000 rpm LS-6 under the hood? that's fun let me tell ya, stomp the gas at 40 mph in 2nd gear and the truck would instantly STOP and start torgueing sideways until the M/T's could get a bite, then it would jerk you straight and spit you out like a cannonball....all in about 1 blink of the eye. a good friend of mine built that truck specifically to beat another friends 69 chevy c-10 with a 383 sucking down a 250 shot of nitrous, just to say he he could do it on just the motor.

 

[SadbutTrue]

Yes there are at least a half dozen aftermarket aluminum heads that could easily make 400hp on a 351W.

However, I wouldn't count out the stock heads so fast. The 1969 Muscle parts catalog had an article in it where they built up a hot 351W using parts out of the catalog. Starting with an 11:1 4bbl engine they added a hotter cam (with ancient cam technology), the C90X intake, a Holley carb (I think 650cfm, again out of the catalog) and headers (which may have been the only thing not in the catalog) and made around 340hp IIRC. Maybe someone has a copy of the Muscle Parts catalog they could reference??

Now if you removed the thermactor bump and gasket matched the exhaust ports and installed 1.9 intake valves with a good multi angle valve job and installed a modern hydraulic roller cam, and modern electronic ignition, I'd bet you could get 400hp. You may not consider them "stock" heads with that much work, but my money says it wouldn't take anything radical as far as port work goes. You would probably also need to convert them to screw in rocker studs, so it would be cheaper to just start with aluminum heads in the first place. If you're into the "correct" look though, I'm sure it CAN be done.

I dunno, thats a hell of a port job.

Also, from what I've heard (not that its holy law or anything), most of the modern cam designs don't increase peak power so much as drivability at lower rpms, expanded power ranges, better torque curves etc. They'll drive better and go faster because they make more power across the board, but if you're just wanting a big peak # some people wills till tell you to go with the old school designs. Compcams, for example, lists the benefits of the Xtreme Energy cam line over its Magnum/High Energy lines as better fuel economy, better low end torque/drivability, etc while 'maintaining' high rpm performance.

Again though, just what I hear.

 

[69gmachine]

I dunno, thats a hell of a port job.

I think that's about as basic as a porting job could be on a SB Ford head.

Also, from what I've heard (not that its holy law or anything), most of the modern cam designs don't increase peak power so much as drivability at lower rpms, expanded power ranges, better torque curves etc. They'll drive better and go faster because they make more power across the board, but if you're just wanting a big peak # some people wills till tell you to go with the old school designs. Compcams, for example, lists the benefits of the Xtreme Energy cam line over its Magnum/High Energy lines as better fuel economy, better low end torque/drivability, etc while 'maintaining' high rpm performance.

Again though, just what I hear.

The High Energy line is 1979 Technology (I don't consider that modern, but still a good design and way ahead of what was available in 1969). The Magnum came later; late 80s or early 90s I believe. Xtreme energy is even more recent.

It seems everyone has their own definition of what a "radical" cam is. I want it to idle all day at 1K or less, have a broad torque curve, and still hit decent top end numbers. The roller cams (and lots of cubic inches) give you the best blend of everything IMO, but you do have to pay for it.

The stock cam in '69 was a puny little wheezer compared to most modern performance cams. I don't know the specs on the "Muscle Parts" cam in 1969 but typically they added a bit more lift and a lot more duration.

 

[bnickel]

I think that's about as basic as a porting job could be on a SB Ford head.



The High Energy line is 1979 Technology (I don't consider that modern, but still a good design and way ahead of what was available in 1969). The Magnum came later; late 80s or early 90s I believe. Xtreme energy is even more recent.

It seems everyone has their own definition of what a "radical" cam is. I want it to idle all day at 1K or less, have a broad torque curve, and still hit decent top end numbers. The roller cams (and lots of cubic inches) give you the best blend of everything IMO, but you do have to pay for it.

The stock cam in '69 was a puny little wheezer compared to most modern performance cams. I don't know the specs on the "Muscle Parts" cam in 1969 but typically they added a bit more lift and a lot more duration.

i think the muscle parts cams had the same specs as the "LeMans" or "GT-40" 289 cams. i think them somewhere, let me see if i can find them

 

[bnickel]

i think the muscle parts cams had the same specs as the "LeMans" or "GT-40" 289 cams. i think them somewhere, let me see if i can find them

it was a single pattern cam, 290 duration (advertised) .470 lift. it doesn't break the duration mumbers down to @.050 but i'd guess probably about 224-230 degrees @ .050, or at least in that neighborhood give or take a few degrees.

 

[callys]

Very good article in the Fall Engine Masters for anyone looking to put together a 351. It should be on the local stand.

A shop builds a stock stroke 351 with basically out-of-the-box AFR 205s, a solid flat tappet cam, and the performer rpm manifold, and it makes 536hp at 6,500 rpm on 91 octane.

They do some trick manifold porting and have a custom ring pack and some other little tricks, but even if the average shop put it together and the combo only made 500hp, pretty stout for a basic package.

 

[SadbutTrue]

I think that's about as basic as a porting job could be on a SB Ford head.

The High Energy line is 1979 Technology (I don't consider that modern, but still a good design and way ahead of what was available in 1969). The Magnum came later; late 80s or early 90s I believe. Xtreme energy is even more recent.

It seems everyone has their own definition of what a "radical" cam is. I want it to idle all day at 1K or less, have a broad torque curve, and still hit decent top end numbers. The roller cams (and lots of cubic inches) give you the best blend of everything IMO, but you do have to pay for it.

The stock cam in '69 was a puny little wheezer compared to most modern performance cams. I don't know the specs on the "Muscle Parts" cam in 1969 but typically they added a bit more lift and a lot more duration.

I agree, I wouldn't want a cam that won't idle itself or be drivable.

But if you're just shooting for a peak horsepower #, I've heard some people swear by certain older cam grinds. They might not have really broad power ranges but the power range they do have can be slightly more than the more recent equivalent ones (not in all cases, obviously, but I'm sure in some). Won't be faster, as fun or as drivable, but if you just want to impress your friends with a dyno sheet it might be for you.

Being that engineering is a world of compromises, I generally think that something had to be comprimised in the newer (XE & company) cams in order to get those board powerbands. Yeah, they have little improvements in general like ramp rates etc... but a cam grind is a cam grind.

Again, not holy law, just something I've heard and sorta makes sense to me. If I owned a dyno shop we'd all know the answer

 

[SadbutTrue]

Very good article in the Fall Engine Masters for anyone looking to put together a 351. It should be on the local stand.

A shop builds a stock stroke 351 with basically out-of-the-box AFR 205s, a solid flat tappet cam, and the performer rpm manifold, and it makes 536hp at 6,500 rpm on 91 octane.

They do some trick manifold porting and have a custom ring pack and some other little tricks, but even if the average shop put it together and the combo only made 500hp, pretty stout for a basic package.

Seems like a lot of head for a 351. But cool.

Eventually I'll have mine dynoed and I'm hoping for 400. On a good day it seems like it might be but sometimes Im not so confident... someday we'll see

 

[woodsnake]

I haven't seen anything about budget, transmission, or rear end gears in this thread.
I also haven't seen a bump for S B F t e c h . c o m....

 

[69gmachine]

Very good article in the Fall Engine Masters for anyone looking to put together a 351. It should be on the local stand.

A shop builds a stock stroke 351 with basically out-of-the-box AFR 205s, a solid flat tappet cam, and the performer rpm manifold, and it makes 536hp at 6,500 rpm on 91 octane.

They do some trick manifold porting and have a custom ring pack and some other little tricks, but even if the average shop put it together and the combo only made 500hp, pretty stout for a basic package.

Interesting... mine made almost exactly the same; 537HP but at 5800 instead of 6500 with the same heads. Got to have cubic inches!

 

[callys]

Or you should have stepped up to the 225s gmachine!

 

[Z06killinSBF]

I haven't seen anything about budget, transmission, or rear end gears in this thread.
I also haven't seen a bump for S B F t e c h . c o m....

Budget - Next to nothing (Less than $2k)
Trans - currently a PA C4 might get an AOD though.
Rear - 3.80's

 

[69gmachine]

Budget - Next to nothing (Less than $2k)
Trans - currently a PA C4 might get an AOD though.
Rear - 3.80's

Just my .02, but with a 40+ year old ride and a budget next to nothing, I'd give up on killin' a Z06 and just be happy making what I had a little bit better.

 

[woodsnake]

I might be interested in your 289.
2K for a performance build isn't going to go very far. If you have 2K for parts, that's one thing. If you have 2K for machine work, that's another thing.
I think, that if I were in your spot and had 2K to build a motor, I'd look really hard at keeping the 289. To kill a corvette requires a lot more than just a huge motor, or even a high HP figure. A new vette smokes our older Fords in the suspension area, and if you can't get the power to the ground, you aren't going any where but up in smoke.

I'd look at w o o d y ' s stroker kits for power, and then re think your plan. If you are going to do all the assembly your self, you can still come out on top.

I also understand that c o r r a l . n e t has a pretty active parts section, you might get something there. The down side of course is freight.

 

[Z06killinSBF]

I have the suspension work done already. 620's, 4-1/2 leafs, Del-a-lum bushings, disk brakes, 6 point roll bar, ST sway bars with poly bushings, new bushing in front, Randall's Rack power rack, welded in subframe connectors.

I'm getting a FREE AOD that was recently rebuilt. The FREE 351w has a fresh rebuild on it (basic but still). I had planned on doing all the work my self and using the profit from selling my 289 and PA C4 to build the 351w.

As for the name, I made that when I had an 88' notch with a 331 on a 100 shot and full MM suspension.

I'm not looking for a vette killer, I just want some thing I can have fun with and the 289 isn't really doing it for me. I've been driving this thing for the past 7 years and want to upgrade it. I know putting on alum heads would give it more power but an alum head 351 would make more, am I wrong? I don't road race it (nothing close to me) and rarely drag it anymore. I thought I would be getting more support than a bashing by putting a 351W in. I was even throwing the idea around of selling both 289 and 351w and both trannies and getting an LS1/A4 set-up. That would piss some people off... Hmmmm......