4.6 question for those in the know....

[LILCBRA]

My cousin's son in law just bought a Roush stage 1 and the engine is bad - more on that here:

So I just spoke to my cousin.... Apparently there will be 3 Mustangs sitting at my house soon. They were caravaning to St Augustine from Iowa when their daughter's boyfriend's Mustang died. Don't know much about it yet, but apparently it had some engine work done before they left Iowa, it was low on oil but they filled it (assuming before they left Iowa?), but it died about 40 miles from my place. My cousin's husband said something come loose. They're having it towed to my place to figure out their next move and how to get it down to Florida. I guess we're going to be having a family conference later..... lol

Sure does look like it's seen better days....

and here:

Some info about their car - he had just bought it from his mom before leaving for Florida, so from what I understand they've only had it for maybe 3 days, including today. It's an '07 stage 1 Roush that a previous owner (not sure if it was his mom or someone else) had Thumper cams and some other work done to the engine. It has a Jasper reman transmission, dunno exactly when it was installed. He said his mom had just had an oil change before putting it in storage, not sure when that was or how long it was in storage. He said that it had a slight tick since he started driving it, so they checked the oil at some point after they left Iowa and found that it was like 3 quarts low iirc. He said they topped it off but the tick never stopped but started getting worse. He said then it started knocking, so they pulled over and shut it down. It will still crank over, but he only hit the key briefly each time - maybe 3 or 4 times while I stood there. It actually tried to fire up on one of those cranks. We stopped there and winched it onto my trailer and backed it up my driveway in the rain - because, you know, every time a car breaks down you've gotta have rain.... So it now sits on my garage pad with my 2 Mustangs and 55. They've gotta get back on the road to get back to St Augustine since they were supposed to be back to work today, so we'll all have to plan what the next steps are. It may be that they make that drive a couple times and just work on it at my house. I mean I have almost all the tools they'd need, it's on level ground (after we unload it from my trailer if that's what they do....), and I'm closer to some places that they may need to retrieve parts or whatever, like Prestige Mustang or Summit. That, and I have more space for them to work since they live in an HOA and they said that their garage is pretty small.

Now, about the damage along the right side of the car - he said that was a deer that jumped into the car while his mom was driving. I didn't look too closely, but it didn't look like the bumper cover or hood was damaged, just the fender, door and quarter. So, if they decide to do anything more with it, it shouldn't be all bad to have repaired.

My question is this: I know the 3 valve was used in F150s and Explorers and stuff too - are there any other differences in the engine aside from the cams, intake, and exhaust they used? I just started Google searching but so far I'm coming up short. We were thinking of just replacing the engine and I've found a couple Mustang salvage yard engines for around $2k, just curious if I could broaden the search and find something a little closer and, hopefully, a little more budget friendly - IYKWIM.....

 

[LILCBRA]

I think I found the answer to my question.

Are 4.6 3 valve motors all the same - Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums

2009 - 2014 F150 - Are 4.6 3 valve motors all the same - Are all off the 4.6 3v motors the same? Meaning, are the 4.6 3v that are in a 2010 mustang the same that are in a 2010 f150? Trying to find parts and torque spec's online and mustangs keep coming up. And I have a f150.

www.ford-trucks.com

 

[RaggedGT]

Fwiw-and not really related-but have similar words-lol.

I swapped a 4.6 from a 2007 Grand Marquis into my 2001 SuperCrew.

Things that I had to swap over where the intake- the knock sensor under the intake-the coolant tube under the intake-the timing cover-water pump and crank pulley-flywheel, exhaust manifolds and motor mounts-all truck specific parts- probably not useful info- but info nonetheless

 

[LILCBRA]

Man, this section is pretty quiet....

Not much to update with his Roush dilemma yet. I know he's looking for the least expensive and cost effective way to get this engine swapped though. I can't help but think that he should just get himself an Explorer/F150/etc engine and swap all of the Mustang type parts - cams, intake, etc - and go from there. I guess that leads to another question that's kind of related to my original, if he were to get his hands on a 2v engine - is swapping the 3v stuff feasible or would it be a PITA?

Edited to add: Would an older 4.6 from something like a Mark VIII work as above since the Mark VIII had an aluminum block from what I've read about it? We'd probably ditch the 4v stuff in favor of the 3v stuff just for compatibility issues.

 

[RaggedGT]

@MustangIIMatt
Drop some 3v knowledge please kind sir

 

[Bullitt347]

Edited to add: Would an older 4.6 from something like a Mark VIII work as above since the Mark VIII had an aluminum block from what I've read about it? We'd probably ditch the 4v stuff in favor of the 3v stuff just for compatibility issues.

The 3 V 4.6 has VCT
Not sure the 2 V 4.6 does

 

[LILCBRA]

I was thinking more for use as a short block, so take the 3v heads, intake, etc and swap it onto the 2v shortblock. Keep thinking that an Exploder/F150/misc 3v would be the way to go. That way he's just swapping the intake, exhaust, cams, and maybe some front pieces like the timing cover and water pump.

 

[LILCBRA]

The only real downside is he'd be adding ~75 pounds to the front end with the iron block. But it seems the most logical and cost effective way to get it back on the road.

 

[MustangIIMatt]

@MustangIIMatt
Drop some 3v knowledge please kind sir

The 3V has VCT, all of the other 4.6s do not.

For the most part, 4.6s are all at least partially interchangeable if you're creative and/or have someone that can tune for the modifications. The really crazy part is that you can mix and match a lot of bits and pieces to make what you want so long as: 1. You have the right flywheel/flex plate for the crankshaft (6 bolt or 7 bolt), and 2. You have the right manifolds to fit the heads you are using. 2v/3v/4v heads will all bolt to all of the 4.6 bottom ends (check valve clearance, your mileage may vary, and don't forget the 3v has variable valve timing on the intake side).

If you can find a Lincoln Mark VIII engine, they used two different 4V heads on those, but they (along with their Cobra/Mach 1 counterparts) made the same power (more or less) as the 3V without VCT. More importantly, you get the virtually indestructible Teksid block that's made of aluminum in Italy.

Now, I am typing all of this from memory, and it is 4:30 in the morning, so this all might be gibberish, and hell, it might all be wrong. I'll check back in later from the shop after I've woken up and checked the sacred texts (aka my books on building modulars).

 

[LILCBRA]

Thanks Matt! That's what I was thinking and backs up some of what I've found so far. The flywheel/flexplate dilemma is something new though - so he'd most likely want an engine from a vehicle with the same transmission type as his Mustang (auto) so it has the proper flexplate, that's helpful all by itself!

I knew there were 2 different factories and some of the stuff wasn't interchangeable - the biggest thing I remember is that the heads are different somehow between the Romeo and Windsor engines. In this case, if he actually went ahead with a short block swap, it wouldn't be a big deal as long as his existing 3v heads were able to be swapped onto the short block. Another thing I've been curious about - and think I've run across a couple different postings around the interweb that kind of answer this - is if the pistons are all the same or if there are differences? From what I've found, there are slight variations in dish volume depending on the year. Logic tells me, though, that if he were to pick up another 3v engine like I think he should probably do (just to make everything easier and get this car running faster) that there would be negligible, if any, differences in the pistons. Just going from HP/torque numbers that were released they're all relatively equal. That kinda tells me that the engine itself is pretty much the same, there's just some difference in cam specs - basically.

So here's what I think his approach should be as far as finding an engine on a tight budget, tell me if you think there's a better option:

1) Find a 3v from an Exploder/F150/etc, swap his cams and peripherals and go from there. If everything cost the same, go ahead and pick one from a Mustang. It looks like the iron block engines are cheaper looking at Hollander's website.
2) Find any 4.6, preferably with low miles, then do a head swap, etc. This seems like it would be more expensive in the long run.

 

[LILCBRA]

Matt - he had this option:

He called me a little while ago asking this: apparently he had a coworker with a 2003 Cobra drivetrain w/ECU he could buy for like $1200. Apparently the guy's gonna do some kind of diesel swap.

He asked if it would work. Now I dunno how it would work between the different model years and how the electronics would cooperate, but I told him I'd try it - but I also told him that I'm coming from a place where it'd be destined for a project car, not a daily. I told him he may be better suited with another 3 valve and just get the car together and driveable.

Tell you what though, if I had the money just lying around, it'd be tempting to go ahead and grab that stuff and swap it into my vert....

Like I said, I told him if I were in his position that I'd try to find another 3v to try to make this as painless a swap as possible, but if it were a toy I'd be all over it! This car was meant to be a second car for them (they're in their early 20s and trying to get on their feet) and meant for daily status. Since that's the case, I'd keep it as simple as I could. While that combo might be a fun swap, it could also present a whole list of headaches, so pass on it and see what's available to swap into the car and get it on the road as quickly as possible.

 

[Bullitt347]

The only real downside is he'd be adding ~75 pounds to the front end with the iron block. But it seems the most logical and cost effective way to get it back on the road.

Since when did a 4.6 Mustang come with an aluminum block? They have all been Iron blocks.

 

[LILCBRA]

The 05-10 Mustangs had aluminum blocks from what I've found online. This Roush definitely has an aluminum block.

 

[MustangIIMatt]

Since when did a 4.6 Mustang come with an aluminum block? They have all been Iron blocks.

Negative ghostrider. The 4V engines were all aluminum block, the Explorer Sport Trac was aluminum block.

 

[85GTStangGuy]

The 4V engines were all aluminum block....

I think the 03-04 Cobras were the only exception to this. They had the 4 valve heads on a cast iron block.

 

[MustangIIMatt]

I think the 03-04 Cobras were the only exception to this. They had the 4 valve heads on a cast iron block.

You are correct.