400HP 2V N/A....Going back to my roots....

Option 4...

Coyote swap...found a ton of gen3 engines with auto and full harness and supporting parts ...11 to 14k....I already have k member and other supporting parts but if I went this route I would do headders, cams, 4200 stall, intake, CAI, and fuel upgrades to run e85...17 to 19k for 500 to 530rwhp......

Nightfire said:

Nitrous isn't NA dumbass

Click to expand...

Really!!! No S#IT Sherlock ... you must be a God of forum Trolls with all your insight and knowledge.... got kicked out of local track when I ran nitrous back in the day.... to fast for no cage...lol...

So I am contemplating 2 options now.....resleeving the aluminum block and stroking to 5.3l or tork yeah kit.....the 5.8l block build would be nice but not best bang for buck...I could easily hit 500 to 550 with the Tork Tech kit and ported eaton blower and upgrade to larger blower later without cracking the current engine...I did the rebuild for blower or twin turbo in 2010....but resleeving the aluminum block is appealing with 12 to 1 cr or higher and E85....would like to see other 2v builds with high compression using e85 but haven't really found much on this yet....I know the coyotes are very responsive due to VTC and sensors maximizing the use of better fuels...with e85 all my research points to 13 to 1 cr is safe due to reduced detonation and cooling properties of the fuel.....would be a fun ride....potential to hit 430 to 450 with that cr on 12.5 to 13 to 1 cr on e85 stroker...with right set up...would have dedicated internals for pistons and lightweight rotating assembly.....etc...I will do a full cost analysis and contact L&M engines...gotta research full fuel system needed for this as well...just thinking return style system with dual fuel pumps and 60 to 80lbs injectors...

So finally decided to do the re-sleeve Option and build the 5.3L. Overall better option as it is only 1900 to resleeve the aluminum block to 5.0/94mm Bore. Keep the weight savings and don't have to mess with intake modifications and such...

Parts needed are the 5.3L stroker kit with correct dish pistons and valve reliefs (MHS Offers a kit and will see if I can get the pistons needed with their storker kit), 125 to 135lb valve springs (currently on the 90lbs), MHS Stage 4 Cams/degree service, GT500 rocker arms (25% increase in oil pressure) with GT500 lash adjusters. I will start searching for parts now and collecting and will have L&M Engines do my resleeve. I already have everything else from ARP Hardware, billet Oil Pump/gears, 300lph fuel pump upgrade, and new electric water pump, but may need to get larger injectors (30lbs currently) , and my PI 4000 stall refreshed. Going to stay with 93 pump gas for base tune and use Torco for the track and hard running.... Will be shooting for 11.6 to 11.7ish compression ratio and see where the HP lands. Decided to keep my path of the 5.3l but glad now that the Boss Block has been backordered... rather have an aluminum version anyway...

Once I start the tear down, I will have some Manley Rods and Pistons to sell (-18cc dish) with only 15k miles on them as I never went power adder with this combo and 01 Cobra Crankshaft. I sold the Mustang Bullet intake and TFS Intakes already and have some other parts to sell like Accufab plenum and 75mm TB, Polished Aluminum Rims and a few other items.... I am taking some PTO during the 1st week of July and will start the tear down then and just start ordering what I can find for now....

Thinking It should hit over 400hp/tq with all the other mods I have, and the Stage 4 cams should match perfectly with the flow of my ported TFS Heads. I did a dyno graph plot overlay of the 5.3l Combo compared to my old build and you can see how the stage 4 cams behave like a stage 2ish cam in the 5.3l ... time to start ordering...

Ed

Nightfire, you just showed your ignorance by counting the posts and responses and shows you have no life .... you my friend are the weird one... taking you time to bash others on forums is hilarious.... Have you ever contributed to any threads or gave any good insight or feedback? If we are going to go over site metrics, then I guess the 4k views on this post shows no one cares.... lol ... thats 400 more views than posts you did in the past 21 years here.... you are the irrelevant one Nighfire...... Having been on several other forums over the past 18 years, giving insight, advise, and real-world data to others, sponsors, and the community... you are the first true forum troll I have ever seen....

Lol....obviously you dont know the functions of the site if you cant find views....and I like how you use the term kid...lol...grown man brother and retired army here...not a young buck by a long shot....do everyone a favor and quit the BS....you say I am talking to myself but you seem to be talking with me often.....this will be my last response to you as I got more important things to do...like providing helpful and useful research and ideas to assist others and myself......

I would like input from anyone following this thread if you used the GT500 Rocker arms/lash adjusters in your PI/TFS heads and noticed any improvements or gains? I know in high revving applications it was noted that 15rwhp can be gained, but that is spinning over 8k rpms. I plan to be spinning around 6800-7200 tops based on valve springs selection and was wondering if anyone say any gains..... I would assume for the average 7000 rpm motor, having better oiling/valve train efficiency is added insurance but wanted to know if there were any HP/TQ Gains....

When I have my stroker built, I will ensure that tolerances and balancing will be matched/set-up for High compression and intended use to maximize HP so just looking at ways to increase efficiency while I have everything apart....

Thanks for those following this thread and please provide any insight or ideas to bouce off of.....

Ed

So I noted before that I did an overlay of my 281 vs 324 stroker build an wanted to call out/share some of my insights and findings. The average PI intake car with TFS Heads and stage 2-3 cams put down mid 330s to the tires with around 10 to 1ish compression.... this can give you a baseline of HP potential and base combo needed to get 400hp + out of a 2v N/A... I just plotted the 323 stroker graph against my combo to see how the TQ and HP curves compared from the larger displacement and also noted how much cam profiles change when adding 42 cubic inches..... My combo had the VT Stage II cams with .550 lift In/.560 lift exhaust duration at 230/236 on a 109 LSA...... The stroker had the MHS Stage 4 cams with .575/.575 in/ex lifts with duration at 236/238.... my exhasut was off by 10deg as I was using a PI design cam in the TFS Heads... so there was potential for 10-15hp accoss the low to mid range power which effects the ram rate going into the upper HP range.....

For those that have good cams on a 10 to 1ish with stock PI long block average around mid 330s with TFS heads, full headers/exhaust, 70-75mm TB and plenum, CAI, with a tune.... my combo had TFS 44cc ported heads, electric water pump, and a few other tweaks which netted 355 hp on average through an auto.... so just establishing a baseline on potential HP gains from going to a 5.3l stroker compared to the 281 combo.... so let look at the comparison on what is potentially left on the table for power...

Looking at the power curve you will notice that the stage 4 cam compared to the stage 2 cams with larger displacement shows the engine needed a better cam profile to breath up top as the Power and TQ Curve started diving compared to my combo.... there is a couple of reasons....

1. My heads were ported and flow much better throughout the lifts with about 25 more CFM at .600 lift compared to the stock 44cc TFS heads... NOTE: stock TFS head have reversion around .570 to .600 lift for flow and ported they kept going to .600 lift.... with a .575 cam profile, the sweet spot was about . 565 to .570 lift with the stock heads... so porting alone will better help larger flow/lift cams to .580 lift...

2. To me, it looks like for every 15-20 cubic inch increase, the modular needs 1 more stage up on cams due to increased displacement.... keep in mind, with the size of the bore on a stock 281 shrouds the valves due to narrow/limited size.... So, with ported heads, the 323 should have closely mirrored my power curve.... so, a stage 4-5 cam is good but need to see how that engine would have responded with better flowing heads/peak power which would flow more across the top of the chart...

3. Assuming a stock 281 long block with stock TFS Heads and cams average around 330-335hp with good bolt ons/exhaust with a 10 to 1 CR with a slight bump in compression, comparing to my combo with ported heads, with better intake combo, electric water pump, and full bolt ons hit 355 or about 20 more HP on the stock 281 bore, this tells me there was about 20-30hp left on the 323 combo with ported heads, correct cam combo, and a few other tweaks with bolts ons to help free up HP.... Things like alumium DS, Flywheel, underdrives, electric water pump, 375 to 410 gears have the potential to free up HP with this combo.... It did on mine... Also, both combos on this chart have 11.34ish to 1 CR so direct correlation when it comes to compression ration...

4. Intakes - the 323 combo was running a stock Bullet intake, where mine was running the PI Intake, Spacer, and BBK85 mm combo.... as noted in some of my previous posts, the BBK combo was worth nearly 10hp and 10 tq over the Accufab plenum and 75mm TB.... I believe the better head flow and higher CR was able to take advantage over the accufab set up..... Now Richard Holden did intake comparisons on youtube which compared the PI intake with the accufab combo compared to the Bullet and many others.. (check youtube to watch videos for 2v intake comparisons) ... The Accufab combo ran identical to the Bullet...... originally, the bullet outperformed the stock PI Intake and TB by 5hp so the Accufab on the PI matches the bullet in performance..... since I have charts showing the larger 78mm bbk combo did better overall on higher compression set up over both the accufab combo and bullet on my car this is a must for higher CR/top end flowwing cars.... Only thing left would be shorter runner intakes which will give you 20-40 more HP on top at high RMPs but lose low end torque by 20-40 hp depending on intake.... there may be a balance with larger displacement when running say the Vicor Jr EFI intake with the 78mm BBK combo.... only testing would tell with the 323 combo...

Please let me know if anyone has any feedback or questions... just looking to help others and learn more while I start my new build...

So I was doing a comparison of average power across the power band and took the hp numbers at 250rpm increments from 4000 to 6750 on both charts....
The 281 averaged 321.5 and the stroker averaged 367.81.....so on average...the 5.3l is equal to 47.3 hp increase from the racing power band.....I would assume with ported heads and better cam selection....55 to 65 average increase could be gained.... just running some numbers for potential....i will check tq gains next...

So TQ average for the 323 from 4k to 6.75k was 364 average tq....compared to 281 which was 315.65....about 50tq average....again,, with ported heads and better cam profile that average could be around 60 to 75 increase potentially....just some more thoughts and findings....

So was reviewing older graphs, changes to set up, and averages from when I switched from Ported PI Patriot Heads to Ported TFS Heads back in the day... found some interesting things when looking at the potential of what the 5.3l could run...

The average gain in HP switching from the Ported PI Heads to the Ported TFS heads was 21.3 hp from 4000-6750 rpms... with a peak of 50hp gain starting at 6500rpms .... Considering I used the same VT stage 2 cams back in the day and had issues tuning with the PI cams in the TFS heads around 2500-4500 rpms due to exhaust valve timing being off this was very solid gains...

The average TQ was 20 gained from 4000-6750 but also had peak gains of 50hp+ from 6500rpms and up...

The car went from 12.20s @111.5 to 11.60s @116.83N/A with just the head change and retune.... Considering the cam profile used and the heads could have benefited from more lift there was a bit more left on the table for average gains across the board... not sure how much HP and TQ could have improved with the exhaust timing off a bit...

Looking at the 5.3l set up there were a lot of gains of 68tq and 58hp down low (4000-5000rpm range) and 30-40hp and tq gains up top over my 281/TFS combo.... Thinking the cam profile needs a lot more than I thought.... around 238 to 244 duration cams may work (would be more in line with a stage 2 cam for the 5.3 liter or for comparison a stage 5 cam for the 281)...... Looking at the chart, the stage 4 cam behaved like a stage 1 to stage 1.5 cams in the 323 build) ... Pushing the power curve up a bit should net 50-60hp gains instead of 25-45hp gain from 5000rpm to 6750rpm range... so while I am in a holding pattern on my build and buying parts, I am just trying to figure out my approach and cam profile to choose...

If this can be achieved, then an average HP of around 380-385 could be there with peak HP and TQ around 400-415 using ported TFS 185s...

Considering I gained .6 tenths gain in 1/4 mile gaining just 21hp average, this would push the average 60hp gains across the board with peaks of 70 HP/TQ in the mid band and potentially 60+ from 5000rpms and up....

Just goes to show that off the shelf parts didn't work with the stroker as most just forced a larger intake on to build more top end power... Getting the right setup and cam profile or custom cam is needed.... since 99% of all advertised cams are designed for the 281CU engine... TF had some radical cams to spin to the moon, but they were designed for their short runner intakes....... looking at the charts you can run a pretty good size cam and have great drivabilty since a stage 4 281 cam is a baby cam for the 5.3l.... interesting when you learn and understand the math and dynamics of the results.

So was doing some more research on how to improve the power curve for better performance and goals.....it seems the stage 4 MHS cams would be ideal based on chart...stage 5 cam would work but maybe better suited for a 5 speed based on shift point goals for the auto 4r70w.....the ported heads should increase the upper rpm range to closely mirror my old set up but realized that advancing the cams by 2 to 4 degrees can net desired rpm range...to be safe I will have the pistons notched for improved valve clearance to facilitate degreeing and eliminate PTV clearance issues...I will discuss cam profiles and goals with the engine builder as well as I want to keep dynamic cylinder pressure in check....overall goal is 195lbs of static pressure per cylinder which is safe fo 93 octane and 29 to 32 degrees of timing...

So looking at potential HP and TQ averages from 4k to 6750 rpms the Ported PI heads with 11.3ish to 1 CR averaged 300 hp and 296 tq and ran 12.2s in the 1/4 mile...

With the Ported TFS 44cc heads the car averaged 321.5hp and 315.65 which ran 11.65 to 11.67 average in 1/4 mile..so averaging 20 hp and Tq gained around .6 tenths on average ......

The stroker averaged 367.8hp and 364 Tq ... assuming .5 to .6 sec gains in 1/4 mile can be achieved with 20hp and tq average increase the stroker could be worth 1 to 1.2 sec gains in the 1/4 mile..

Assuming suspension, tire combo, and weight is unchanged the car could potentially hit 10.50s to 10.80s....now factor in getting the average hp and tq numbers up to 375 to 380 average with better cams and same curve...the car should RIP mids 10s consistently... I know there are other factors that can come into play but seems possible ... just some more thoughts on overall potential and goals for this build...