66 Mustang Timing issue?

[stangman16]

Hello! I have a '66 stang with a 302 8.9:1 comp. + electronic ignition sys., with a torquer 289 intake, stock heads, and 1406 edel carb. I've been having problems with starting, whether it be cold or hot, it took about a minute or so of on and off cranking to get her started.

Today, I went to check the timing, and had the timing light hooked up to the 1st cyl plug wire, I cannot see any mark at the timing pointer, but when I go below the car, I use the light and can see it perfectly on the bottom towards the drivers side... does this mean I need to try and re-stab the distributor? I moved the distributor clockwise a little more and it seems to start faster. Now I just wonder if I'm 180 deg out? It's been a while since I've done this and I'm a newbie at 22yrs old, so can anyone explain the proper method for this if need be?

 

[65ShelbyClone]

You need to mark your damper's timing lines with something easy to see like white paint or Liquid Paper if you havent already. If they are still really far off and you cannot turn the distributor far enough to adjust it, then pull it out and retime. For repeatability, put the engine on top dead center(passenger front piston @ top of compression stroke) and put the distributor in with the rotor pointing at the #1 terminal on the cap. If they are not numbered, just follow the plug wire.

 

[84convertablegt]

heres what i did because i was having the same exact problem. i was able to at least determine 0' and 10' btdc. u can either rub some chalk on there and then rub the excess off with your finger or, i opted to install a timing tape. i stopped by jegs (nice thing about living in columbus) and picked up a mr. gasket timing tape made for the 289 balancer. u clean the balancer of paint with some sandpaper and wipe it clean with paint thinner. then i lined up 0' with 0' on the tape and installed the tape while rotating the crank with a 15/16" 1/2 inch socket setup. now checking the timing is a breeze. you can just point the light on there and see it exactly from a mile away. its also nice because it degrees up to like 30 or 40 btdc so u can see if your vacuum advance is working and also shows 90' out when you have maybe stabbed your dizzy wrong or something. this or a new balancer is the best, but the paint method will work well as long as your balancers marks are still good. mine were almost gone from paint sanding, so i needed this mod.

 

[redhotcomet]

I have a couple guesses.
-Timing light on wrong plug wire
-Dizzy installed incorrectly

Of those two, I would say the second is more likely. I'm guessing that your timing marker is on the passenger side of the block. If your marks are showing up underneath on the drivers side, I would suspect that you have the distributor out. However, if it was 180 degrees out I dont think it would even start. I think you would be getting some backfiring out the carb or exhaust.

But you say it does run, athough it takes awhile to start. Also by turning the dizzy clockwise (advancing?) makes it easer to start. So then dizzy is too retarded?

Im fairly new at this too, I'm only 21, so please don't flame me if any of this is wrong.

 

[stangman16]

Someone had suggested that my balancer may have slipped..? Is there a way to check this? could my timing chain have jumped?

 

[84convertablegt]

how long have u had your car, do u know that the balancer was ever put on right. if it wasnt lined up when installed it would be off, and i suppose it could have slipped, but if it bolted down properly, thats hard to do

 

[stangman16]

how long have u had your car, do u know that the balancer was ever put on right. if it wasnt lined up when installed it would be off, and i suppose it could have slipped, but if it bolted down properly, thats hard to do

I've had the car since Dec 16, 2000. If I remember correctly, isn't there 1 way to put the balancer on due to the key it has? I won't get a chance till thursday or Sunday to check if it's 180 deg out or not. (I'm not 100% sure how to check that tho..?) I did put the #1 cyl on TDC and it lined up with the distributor on my #1 cyl mark. I just don't see how the timing mark ends up at the bottom of the engine while timing... This car has never run right since I bought it from the previous owner. (it broke down on me after 2 weeks, had to rebuild engine when I bought it - lots of mis-matched parts) The car starts and runs much better, never have i been able to peel the tires by giving it 1/4 throttle till now, and I just had to turn the dizzy counter clockwise to get it that way.

 

[65ShelbyClone]

I've had the car since Dec 16, 2000. If I remember correctly, isn't there 1 way to put the balancer on due to the key it has?

Yes, there is only one way to put the damper on the crank and that is due to the key which also aligns the crank timing gear. 84convertible is thinking of the wrong part slipping. A damper "slips" when the outer metal ring(with your timing marks) shifts in relation to the center hub. The only thing that holds the two together is a bonded layer of rubber. To check it, bring the engine to TDC and simply look at the damper's timing marks. If the pointer isnt on 0* BTDC, it has slipped.

 

[stangman16]

Yes, there is only one way to put the damper on the crank and that is due to the key which also aligns the crank timing gear. 84convertible is thinking of the wrong part slipping. A damper "slips" when the outer metal ring(with your timing marks) shifts in relation to the center hub. The only thing that holds the two together is a bonded layer of rubber. To check it, bring the engine to TDC and simply look at the damper's timing marks. If the pointer isnt on 0* BTDC, it has slipped.

and if the pointer is at 0° BTDC, then I am 180° out? I have a feeling it has slipped... i can't check it till tomorrow or thursday

 

[XXBULLETSXX]

I've heard that's its actually pretty easy for an older balancer to "slip". Mine did. I had to buy a new one but have been scared to put it in because I've heard that you have to replace the seal behind the balancer when you pull the balancer. Supposedly, if you don't replace the front seal you will have oil leaks because the old seal has worn to the old balancer which will cause it to leak when the new one is installed. Does anyone know if that is true? Because if it's not, mines going on tomorrow! LOL

 

[84convertablegt]

well, it is definately the best time to replace the front seal. its not a hard thing to do, its better than a big oil leak all the time. you first make sure the old one is out, you can carefully pry it out with a screwdriver, although im sure there is a tool for this. and then you can put the new one in by lining it up and knocking it in with a large socket or the "tool made to do it" i dont know if its absolutely madatory, but its when people usually replace the front seal out of convenience

 

[stangman16]

I just want to rule out, that if the marks are off that bad - this can't be a case where my timing chain jumped, 'eh?

 

[84convertablegt]

heres an idea, when you take off the old balancer, line up the timing marks with the new one and see if the keys line up alright. if they do, you have another problem and its not the balancer, if it doesnt line up, then you are good, the balancer slipped

 

[XXBULLETSXX]

well, it is definately the best time to replace the front seal. its not a hard thing to do, its better than a big oil leak all the time. you first make sure the old one is out, you can carefully pry it out with a screwdriver, although im sure there is a tool for this. and then you can put the new one in by lining it up and knocking it in with a large socket or the "tool made to do it" i dont know if its absolutely madatory, but its when people usually replace the front seal out of convenience

So will the front seal come out from the front without pulling any additional parts besides the balancer?

 

[84convertablegt]

yes

 

[stangman16]

don't you have to take off the timing cover to get the front seal off to replace it?
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[84convertablegt]

ummmmm, good point, ill have to check on that, its been so long... i didnt even think of that.. lets say maybe, ill get back with you on that i dont remember having to do that though. i changed the front seal on a 94 5.0, im sure its the same procedure though

 

[stangman16]

it's been awhile since I've had to do it myself also. I'm not looking forward to it either i always end up with a water leak around the timing cover and the water pump....

 

[65ShelbyClone]

Unless the front seal isnt in there tight enough to begin with, you'll probably have to pull the timing cover. In order to do that correctly, you'll need to pull the oil pan too. I replaced the front seal on my 5.0 and it must have been intalled with epoxy or Lock-Tite or something. I ended up having to use a Dremel and cutoff wheel to cut the metal ring and then peel it out. I reinstalled it with blue silicone. To keep your timing cover fron leaking, use some silicone on that too(a very thin layer, go easy with it) and make sure the sealing surfaces are flat and dont have too much corrosion pitting.

 

[stangman16]

I'm stumped...

Okay, finally got a chance to tinker with the '66, and I put the engine on TDC in #1, and it lines up with the dist marked for 1. But the timing indicator shows about 37-38° BTDC (so my 8° mark is to the left)... Does this mean I'm off a tooth or did my timing chain jump? The car starts perfectly and runs real good. I haven't taken it on the road yet due to a brake leak, but I've run it around this apartment complex a couple times and it has alot more power to the wheels by how easily they chirp!