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afr 205's on stock 302

  • Thread starter Thread starter dmc919
  • Start date Start date Mar 12, 2009
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mavmavv

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#21
  • Mar 13, 2009
  • #21
Buy them and then sell them for AFR 165s. That would be the right size for a 302.
 

Rick 91GT

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Nov 29, 1999
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#22
  • Mar 15, 2009
  • #22
95Vert383AOD said:
Yeah im just torn between getting a 205 or 225 on a 383ci motor
Click to expand...

Depending on the excat combo, and if its a street car I would go 205's and keep the port velocity up.
 

jwzg

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#23
  • Mar 16, 2009
  • #23
With the right cam, almost anything will work.

I'm not suggesting you spend a bundle on a custom cam to install a set of grossly oversized heads (for a 302) rather than save your money and build a proper stroker that could use these, but anything is possible...just not expedient.
 

Wallzy

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#24
  • Mar 16, 2009
  • #24
Today 05:19 PM
jwzg With the right cam, almost anything will work.

I'm not suggesting you spend a bundle on a custom cam to install a set of grossly oversized heads (for a 302) rather than save your money and build a proper stroker that could use these, but anything is possible...just not expedient.
Click to expand...
Cam's do not control the average port velocity, one of the key factors for choosing the port diameter of your head. With fuel injection cars it is not as bad since the fuel will not "fall" out of the charge, but it will not run "ideal" either. Good luck!

Walz
 

jwzg

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#25
  • Mar 16, 2009
  • #25
Wallzy said:
Cam's do not control the average port velocity, one of the key factors for choosing the port diameter of your head. With fuel injection cars it is not as bad since the fuel will not "fall" out of the charge, but it will not run "ideal" either. Good luck!

Walz
Click to expand...

True, it wouldn't be optimal, but it's within the realm of possibility .

I'd personally rather have a set of 165's, but for $800, those would make for a great trade.
 

95Vert383AOD

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#26
  • Mar 16, 2009
  • #26
<~~~has heads that flow like 170's that i need to get rid of.....and i need 205's bad because my car stops making Power after 4500ish RPM 383 Strokers don't like Heads that only flow 270 Cfm @ .600

Im willing to make a deal and the creator of this tread some $$$ on top of the heads i have for the 205's

~Chris
 

joel5.0

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#27
  • Mar 16, 2009
  • #27
Wallzy said:
Cam's do not control the average port velocity, one of the key factors for choosing the port diameter of your head. With fuel injection cars it is not as bad since the fuel will not "fall" out of the charge, but it will not run "ideal" either. Good luck!

Walz
Click to expand...

... so there are 165cc cams, 170cc cams, 185cc.... etc rated cams? I guess exhaust scavenging doesn't play a role on the intake charge either then..... right? ..... you have a xxx cc port there (static), and camshaft events (dynamics) cannot affect the A/F charge whatsoever... right? I wonder how a 306 (small engine) with a single plane intake (torque limiter), 650 DP carburetor and 220cc Victor Jr. heads (huge), in a DD setup making 20+ MPG with A/C, P/S, P/B could run 11.31@118 MPH shifting @6500 RPM's? ... Was the cam huge?..... in alphabet cams terms and duration @.050" wise, the intake was smaller than an E-303, the exhaust = a B/X- 303, and the LSA = F-303.
 

85_SS_302_Coupe

it sucks (I know) to be on the receiving end
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#28
  • Mar 17, 2009
  • #28
If the intake valves are bigger than a 1.94 then you're SOL unless you notch the pistons, and then you're still limited on valve lift.


Me personally, i'd run'em even if they are too big. But, i'm the type that buys things piece by piece while i work towards the big picture. Right now i've got too much cam and not enough heads...but i'll get heads down the road to match the cam and things will get better. I don't think it'll be a total pig like everyone else, but it definitely won't show you even a hint of the heads' true potential.
 

joel5.0

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#29
  • Mar 17, 2009
  • #29
85_SS_302_Coupe said:
If the intake valves are bigger than a 1.94 then you're SOL unless you notch the pistons, and then you're still limited on valve lift.
Click to expand...

Why would it be limited in valve lift? If the valve springs and valve train is set correctly, and .600" lift is required (as an example), notching the pistons has no effect on total valve lift.
 

Wallzy

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#30
  • Mar 17, 2009
  • #30
... so there are 165cc cams, 170cc cams, 185cc.... etc rated cams? I guess exhaust scavenging doesn't play a role on the intake charge either then..... right? ..... you have a xxx cc port there (static), and camshaft events (dynamics) cannot affect the A/F charge whatsoever... right? I wonder how a 306 (small engine) with a single plane intake (torque limiter), 650 DP carburetor and 220cc Victor Jr. heads (huge), in a DD setup making 20+ MPG with A/C, P/S, P/B could run 11.31@118 MPH shifting @6500 RPM's? ... Was the cam huge?..... in alphabet cams terms and duration @.050" wise, the intake was smaller than an E-303, the exhaust = a B/X- 303, and the LSA = F-303.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say that there are cams per runner volume, runner volumes are used as a basis for determining the average diameter of the port - gives a good basis when looking at different shaped ports.

Correct, camshaft events can not affect the A/F charge.

Your car sounds like a good ride, i am in no means saying that you can not make a 205cc head work - i'm not really a letter cam guy either (even though i have one in my car) so i would have to look up the duration and LC. What i was trying to imply is that port velocity is ideal and usually designed around 300ft/s (for max power) - some institutes claim 280 and others 320, but 300 is a good basis. Camshafts duration on the other hand for the desired RPM, LC for the power band width, and lift based on the curtain area of the valve and port efficiency. These factors are usually always a good starting point when beginning an engine design from the ground up.
|
Walz
 

Wallzy

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#31
  • Mar 17, 2009
  • #31
joel5.0 Quote:
Originally Posted by 85_SS_302_Coupe
If the intake valves are bigger than a 1.94 then you're SOL unless you notch the pistons, and then you're still limited on valve lift.

Why would it be limited in valve lift? If the valve springs and valve train is set correctly, and .600" lift is required (as an example), notching the pistons has no effect on total valve lift.
Click to expand...


...It does when the piston prevents it from lifting due to contact.

Walz
 

joel5.0

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#32
  • Mar 17, 2009
  • #32
Wallzy said:
Correct, camshaft events can not affect the A/F charge.

Walz
Click to expand...
.....
 

Wallzy

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#33
  • Mar 17, 2009
  • #33
joel5.0 Quote:
.....


Really?????
 

joel5.0

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#34
  • Mar 17, 2009
  • #34
Wallzy said:
...It does when the piston prevents it from lifting due to contact.

Walz
Click to expand...

I guess you missed the whole point........

85_SS_302_Coupe said:
If the intake valves are bigger than a 1.94 then you're SOL unless you notch the pistons, and then you're still limited on valve lift.
Click to expand...

.... or let me rephrase, if the piston and valves clear, whether you have to notch or not.... Why would it be limited in valve lift?
 

Wallzy

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#35
  • Mar 17, 2009
  • #35
Agreed - if it clears you would not be limited to lift due to interference.
 

jwzg

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Mar 17, 2009
#36
  • Mar 17, 2009
  • #36
Peak lift does not determine p-v clearance. The timing of the valve events does. (Captain Obvious to the rescue here) A custom cam allows you to "optimize" the setup (i.e. get it to run as good as it can). However, if I have to run less than optimal cam specs from a performance standpoint just to get around smacking the valves, that just doesn't make a whole lotta sense unless you simply want to run something different.
 

5spd GT

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#37
  • Mar 17, 2009
  • #37
With that large of a cylinder head, one will likely need a band-aid to get it to the desired performance.

Some use small intakes on a large cylinder head, or a small camshaft to limit the time (and the when) air can travel into the cylinder.

A matched combination is best.
 

Rick 91GT

Mustang Master
Nov 29, 1999
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Mar 17, 2009
#38
  • Mar 17, 2009
  • #38
5spd GT said:
With that large of a cylinder head, one will likely need a band-aid to get it to the desired performance.

Some use small intakes on a large cylinder head, or a small camshaft to limit the time (and the when) air can travel into the cylinder.

A matched combination is best.
Click to expand...

AMEN

I'm going to throw another wrench, are the heads hyd or solid roller prepped?
 

clement

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#39
  • Mar 17, 2009
  • #39
the cylinder heads make the power. more air and fuel in = more power. the displacement just determines the rpm where the power will be made. saying that an AFR 205 is too big for a 302 is a blanket statement and one that may or may not be true depending on the users desired powerband. i dont know that i would go so far to say that a "smaller head" would be faster because it has a more agressive cam. anyone claiming that a milder cam is a bandaid for a bigger head doesnt fully understand valve timing or cross section and its implications. Judson Massingill runs the school of automotive machinists and for a price will explain these concepts.
 

5spd GT

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#40
  • Mar 17, 2009
  • #40
clement said:
the cylinder heads make the power. more air and fuel in = more power. the displacement just determines the rpm where the power will be made. saying that an AFR 205 is too big for a 302 is a blanket statement and one that may or may not be true depending on the users desired powerband. i dont know that i would go so far to say that a "smaller head" would be faster because it has a more agressive cam. anyone claiming that a milder cam is a bandaid for a bigger head doesnt fully understand valve timing or cross section and its implications. Judson Massingill runs the school of automotive machinists and for a price will explain these concepts.
Click to expand...

The total intake trac makes power, not just the cylinder head. You are missing ~50-75% of the runners, in just considering the cylinder head.

More air does equal more power, if actually used.


The top-end can also determine where the power will be made.

This is true, but let's be honest. How many guys are on stangnet with 8,000 RPM goals?

Why not? Do you believe that in every case that a large cylinder head/small camshaft is the best case scenario in all scenarios?

Who said, a mild camshaft? I hope you are not just comparing .050" numbers or lift numbers. This is a fraction of the importance. It is the lobe that determines the mildness. But then again, what is "mild."?


Do you? Does anybody FULLY understand?
 
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