Aftermarket brakes not always better than stock?

[tamadrummer88]

Im looking at the MII setup for my front end ( will be ordering in a week or so)
and looking at Reenmachine's setup ( with wilwood brakes all around), and are considering replacing the factory discs setup on the MII with a nicer wilwood setup, but have heard some "not so impressed" rumours about aftermarket brakes:

I have heard that aftermarket brakes are mainly for looks, and have pretty much the same functionality and feel as stock brakes.

Aftermarket brakes perform just as stock brakes, but the fade is reduced with aftermarket brakes because of the whole drilled/slotted factor for ventilation.

So the question is, will aftermarket setups only be good for show, or will aftermarket brakes really be more better than stock brakes, in terms of functionality?

And yes, I have alotted space in my budget for aftermarket brakes. If the wilwoods arent even worth considering, then im just gonna spend that money on a disc conversion for the back.


John

 

[5.0ina66]

I've heard the open-track guys say that the 11" Wilwoods are pretty useless if youre gonna drive it really hard since the pads are so small. The factory disc brakes are usually adequate even for opentracking with good fluid and pads.

Front discs are a must anyway. Scarebird's setup is $350 all said and done, with nearly identical specs as far as size and everything as the stock setup.

 

[Edbert]

The term aftermarket is too broad for a yes/no to being better than stock. Some of the entry level offerings from top brands, including the MII conversions (entry level) are no better than the 65-67 PDB fronts, which were extremely good for being ~40 years old.

Once you break out of the entry-level products though great improvements can be found, most due to larger pads and rotors. Just don't expect your $650 disc brake upgrade kit to be much better than the 65-67 factory PDBs. You'll have to spend over $1K to get much better than those. I think the Cobra conversion (PBR calipers on 13" rotors) is the best bang for the buck.

 

[thehueypilot]

The first time you go to the parts store to get replacement parts (pads or rebuild kit) for your aftermarket units you will go back to stock next time.

 

[bnickel]

one thing i will tell you about the M-II stock brakes is that they suck worse than any stock classic mustang disc brakes. the M-II uses weeny 10" rotors and small singkle piston calipers. which is one of the main reasons i've been trying to get you to do more research on the M-II setup before you spend all your cash on it. the wilwood setup is 10 times better than a stock M-II brake system, period. but it's not better than the stock 65-67 4 piston disc brakes.

 

[tamadrummer88]

one thing i will tell you about the M-II stock brakes is that they suck worse than any stock classic mustang disc brakes. the M-II uses weeny 10" rotors and small singkle piston calipers. which is one of the main reasons i've been trying to get you to do more research on the M-II setup before you spend all your cash on it. the wilwood setup is 10 times better than a stock M-II brake system, period. but it's not better than the stock 65-67 4 piston disc brakes.

Not to sound smart or be a wise-ass, why dont you enlighten me on what kind of front aftermarket suspension i should spend my 2.5 grand on, so I can obviously make you happy.


John

 

[HistoricMustang]

I've heard the open-track guys say that the 11" Wilwoods are pretty useless if youre gonna drive it really hard since the pads are so small. The factory disc brakes are usually adequate even for opentracking with good fluid and pads.

Front discs are a must anyway. Scarebird's setup is $350 all said and done, with nearly identical specs as far as size and everything as the stock setup.

I am in this camp!

HistoricMustang

 

[tamadrummer88]

well, I guess for a while the car will suffice with the stock MII discs in the front, and drums in the rear. The goal for now is to get the car running, and the MII suspension is the important piece in my project right now. The 429 will come later. The suspension will be the deluxe package, with tubular control arms, and QA1 coilover upgrade shocks.



John

 

[65ShelbyClone]

I have heard that aftermarket brakes are mainly for looks, and have pretty much the same functionality and feel as stock brakes.

Aftermarket brakes perform just as stock brakes, but the fade is reduced with aftermarket brakes because of the whole drilled/slotted factor for ventilation.

Totally false. If the rotor is larger than stock(usually 11") and the pads sizes are at least equal, the larger brakes will have more mechanical advantage. If you have the grip, then that mechanical advantage is translated into shorter stopping distances. Larger rotors also can absorb more energy just with more material and they also have larger internal area to reject that heat.

Or are you referring to stock-sized aftermarket brakes? In that case I wouldn't bother. I do, however, think that the MII 10" brakes will be far inadequate with a 385 series engine sitting between them. Stock pre-'74 discs aren't bad, but it's still not overly difficult to fade 'em with street pads and lighter smallblock car.

 

[Edbert]

68E...there's no perfect suspension setup available, at least not one for all available applications. Then you add in the price/performance variable and it gets even muddier. With that in mind take everyone's advice with a grain of salt, and be skeptical. Most of all be skeptical of anyone who claims their way is universally superior to anyone else's.

Stock suspension on 67-70 chassis needs only a little help to "wake-up". It has one clear advantage over the other Mustand suspensions ( MII or Fox or SN95) that is the long/short control-arm setup. This is true for the 65/66 as well but they need a bit more work (aka money) to get setup since FoMoCo addressed some of the issues when they redesigned the inner chassis. The stock steering mechanism is more in need of updating than the suspension IMO.

MII/Fox/SN95 can be adapted, and provide some improvement over the stock. The struts can be replaced with coil-over (high rate) and shocks, plus they all enjoy massive over-the-counter support, which helps the price/performance ratio.

The only classic brakes that do "really" well are the 4-piston 65-67 ones. Almost any factory brake system will benefit from a newer brake design, the 68-70 power discs being less so, but still benefitting from a better caliper arrangement. Of course adapting a later system will require a number of other changes to your system.

Anyhow, once you get into more esoteric suspension and brake systems they can definitely outperform the stock setup. But full setups with 14" 6-piston front brakes and full schock-tower removal and frame modification or a coil-over kit from TCP or GW will blow your $2,500 budjet and not even be almost done.

======
So, my recomendation for suspension/brakes for $2,500 is to stick with a stock setup (mostly), spend about $950 on a brake kit and save the difference to put towards some other department. Of course you should take that into consideration as coming from a guy who wonders why you like the 4.6 platform for a classic application and has owned 3 of them (4.6s) and a 5.4.

 

[tamadrummer88]

68E...there's no perfect suspension setup available, at least not one for all available applications. Then you add in the price/performance variable and it gets even muddier. With that in mind take everyone's advice with a grain of salt, and be skeptical. Most of all be skeptical of anyone who claims their way is universally superior to anyone else's.

Stock suspension on 67-70 chassis needs only a little help to "wake-up". It has one clear advantage over the other Mustand suspensions ( MII or Fox or SN95) that is the long/short control-arm setup. This is true for the 65/66 as well but they need a bit more work (aka money) to get setup since FoMoCo addressed some of the issues when they redesigned the inner chassis.

MII/Fox/SN95 can be adapted, and provide some improvement over the stock. The struts can be replaced with coil-over (high rate) and shocks, plus they all enjoy massive over-the-counter support, which helps the price/performance ratio.

The only classic brakes that do "really" well are the 4-piston 65-67 ones. Almost any factory brake system will benefit from a newer brake design, the 68-70 power discs being less so, but still benefitting from a better caliper arrangement. Of course adapting a later system will require a number of other changes to your system.

Anyhow, once you get into more esoteric suspension and brake systems they can definitely outperform the stock setup. But full setups with 1" 6-piston front brakes and full schock-tower removal and frame modification or a coil-over kit from TCP or GW will blow your $2,500 budjet and not even be almost done.

======
So, my recomendation for suspension/brakes for $2,500 is to stick with a stock setup (mostly), spend about $950 on a brake kit and save the difference to put towards some other department. Of course you should take that into consideration as coming from a guy who wonders why you like the 4.6 platform for a classic application and has owned 3 of them (4.6s) and a 5.4.

Thank you.

As for me, im 17, and Im still new to the world of cars, especially mustangs. Ive always wanted a fastback, either 66 or 68. This is my dream car, and I got it on my 16th birthday.

For 2 years, It has been sitting in my garage, untouched, because I didnt have the money or time to restore the car. BUt now, I have been working, i have graduated from high school, my school for the fall is paid for, and I have some money saved up from work, and my dad has saved up too. He has saved up for a new suspension setup, and some body mods. He has had great experience with the MII setup, as he installed one on his friends 53 Bel Air, and the ride is great, although that one was the economy setup, and not the deluxe that he wants. I wanted a TCP coilover setup, but, I decided to take my dad's advice ( as he has been into cars his whole life, owned at least one bodyshop, and built like 4 racecars in his life) and go for a MII setup.This is a car that I want to enjoy with my dad, and something that he can take great pride in ( as he said that it will be the best car he has ever built).

I appreciate the advice everyone has given me, and I apologize greatly if I have snubbed your advice. But, im still learning, and stilla lot of things that need to be considered.

In the next week, I will be ordering the Heidts MII setup, with the tubular control arms and QA1 coilovers. When the kit gets here and when we get started, I will post a lot of pics. thank you very much.


John

 

[bnickel]

Not to sound smart or be a wise-ass, why dont you enlighten me on what kind of front aftermarket suspension i should spend my 2.5 grand on, so I can obviously make you happy.


John

you know what dude, i'm trying to help you out and you don't seem to understand that. all i said was that YOU need to do some research!!!

please take my advice though on the brakes and don't use the 10" brakes that come with the kit. skip the tubular control arms and the coilover shocks for now and at least get the better brakes. i can tell you from experience the stock M-II 10" brakes suck, this is coming from someone that has owned a stock M-II. it was 78 coupe, 2.3 4 banger, automatic, ac, power steering pretty much a loaded car for a M-II. and i can also tell you that with a little bit of work my 69 handles 10 times better than the mustang II ever did and it stops better too. so i'm not making suggestions based on speculation i'm making them from experience.

the mustang II was MY college car, i'm gonna be 37 years old in 3 weeks and i've owned more than 20 cars in my life the 69 is the only one i have kept and ut was my first car i got right after thanksgiving when i was 15. so i know what these cars are like and know what they are capable of doing.

the main reason that street rod guys use the M-II setup is because it is a million times better than the old solid axle suspensions those cars came with and those cars also have full frames as well. if you are dead set on the M-II then fine but at least take the time to strengthen the chassis and build some supports, think roll bar type cage, for the front suspension, especially if you plan on running a big block.

i don;t want you make me happy, i want YOU TO BE HAPPY with what you build. i want YOU to enjoy YOUR car and i want you to be safe as well. i personally would still go with either a tcp or global west coilover setup on your car and then shave the shock towers to fit the 429, but i see that you have your heart set on the M-II and building the car with your dad, so fine y'all do what you want to do but i still recommend that you and your dad do some more research before you do it.

the reason i am making suggestions is so you don't get the car all torn apart and realize that it isn't going to work the way you thought it would and end up with a project that never gets finished and then you end hating the car. i'm trying to talk you out of cutting the car up at all, like the saying says "anyone can restore a car but it takes a real man to cut one up". i just have seen a bunch of people all gung ho to start ripping into the car and then the project stalls because they didn't do enough research on what they were planning to do and the car sits forever and never gets finished. my best friend has a 73 charger that is one of those projects and my other best friend has 5 280z's and only one of them runs and his wife drives that car everyday.

so do you see what i'm trying to say here?

 

[rbohm]

john i highly recomend you use master power brakes 11" disc kit for the mustang ll spindles. you get 11" rotors, and GM B body calipers. that will give you a huge improvement over the stock mustang ll brakes.

 

[tamadrummer88]

you know what dude, i'm trying to help you out and you don't seem to understand that. all i said was that YOU need to do some research!!!

please take my advice though on the brakes and don't use the 10" brakes that come with the kit. skip the tubular control arms and the coilover shocks for now and at least get the better brakes. i can tell you from experience the stock M-II 10" brakes suck, this is coming from someone that has owned a stock M-II. it was 78 coupe, 2.3 4 banger, automatic, ac, power steering pretty much a loaded car for a M-II. and i can also tell you that with a little bit of work my 69 handles 10 times better than the mustang II ever did and it stops better too. so i'm not making suggestions based on speculation i'm making them from experience.

the mustang II was MY college car, i'm gonna be 37 years old in 3 weeks and i've owned more than 20 cars in my life the 69 is the only one i have kept and ut was my first car i got right after thanksgiving when i was 15. so i know what these cars are like and know what they are capable of doing.

the main reason that street rod guys use the M-II setup is because it is a million times better than the old solid axle suspensions those cars came with and those cars also have full frames as well. if you are dead set on the M-II then fine but at least take the time to strengthen the chassis and build some supports, think roll bar type cage, for the front suspension, especially if you plan on running a big block.

i don;t want you make me happy, i want YOU TO BE HAPPY with what you build. i want YOU to enjoy YOUR car and i want you to be safe as well. i personally would still go with either a tcp or global west coilover setup on your car and then shave the shock towers to fit the 429, but i see that you have your heart set on the M-II and building the car with your dad, so fine y'all do what you want to do but i still recommend that you and your dad do some more research before you do it.

the reason i am making suggestions is so you don't get the car all torn apart and realize that it isn't going to work the way you thought it would and end up with a project that never gets finished and then you end hating the car. i'm trying to talk you out of cutting the car up at all, like the saying says "anyone can restore a car but it takes a real man to cut one up". i just have seen a bunch of people all gung ho to start ripping into the car and then the project stalls because they didn't do enough research on what they were planning to do and the car sits forever and never gets finished. my best friend has a 73 charger that is one of those projects and my other best friend has 5 280z's and only one of them runs and his wife drives that car everyday.

so do you see what i'm trying to say here?

I see, and maybe there have been a few misunderstandings here, and maybe its my fault.

I have addressed all concerns of chassis streghtening and brakes. Im either gonna make custom subframe connectors, or get the TCP setup. For now, FOR NOW, the car is going to run with the stock 302 and the T-5, with the stock MII brakes. When the big block goes in, ill address the brakes and trans, by then i should have enough money saved up for a used trans and some bigger brakes, unless my dad beats me to it already.

I really do thank you for the advice, and i probably made a ass out of myself towards you, and i apologize. Yes, even just looking at the car under the car cover makes me happy.....its been 2 years of ownership, and i have never driven it. Im setting up my shopping list for the interior right now...my dad has the financial provisions set aside for the MII suspension...I was at eh junkyard earlier this week, and I saw a Jag with the IRS....i might go back later on and see how much i could get it for...im new to this, and I appreciate all the help....its RARE these days to see a kid my age interested in old muscle, and actually respects them.


John

 

[ultrastang]

The term aftermarket is too broad for a yes/no to being better than stock. Some of the entry level offerings from top brands, including the MII conversions (entry level) are no better than the 65-67 PDB fronts, which were extremely good for being ~40 years old.

Once you break out of the entry-level products though great improvements can be found, most due to larger pads and rotors. Just don't expect your $650 disc brake upgrade kit to be much better than the 65-67 factory PDBs. You'll have to spend over $1K to get much better than those. I think the Cobra conversion (PBR calipers on 13" rotors) is the best bang for the buck.

The SN-95 V6/GT and SN-95 Cobra rear disc brakes are projects I've been working on for a while to adapt over onto the early Mustang 8- & 9-inch rear ends.

They're more inline with the average Mustanger's budget, they are proven parts with more than 10 years of service on the road (were available on 1994-2004 Mustangs), you can get performance pads for them, a combination of slotted or slotted and drilled rotors, and best of all they'er original Ford parts.

1. http://www.ultrastang.com/Ultrainfo.asp?Page_ID=17

2. http://www.ultrastang.com/Ultrainfo.asp?Page_ID=18


www.ultrastang.com

 

[Edbert]

Hey there Ultra, you back from the dead or just lurking all this time?

I just wanted to say thanks for your information. I got a 2.3L 1993 booster into my 67 with a Wilwood MC and Cobra front discs, your site made it much easier!

 

[70MachI]

ultrastang: I went to your website. Do you have any prices anywhere? also with the cobra rear discs is it compatible to use a parking brake? sorry to hijack the thread.

68E: I was like you ounce I got my 70 fastback. I was gun-ho on getting the MII suspension. I was doing a lot of research on them and discovered most of the weaknesess. I thought the MII would make the car handle better and stop better for cheaper. Well like these guys are saying I am finding that there are better alternatives to your MII suspension. All these guys want you to do is slow down a little and read, read, read. The MII suspension isn't end all, be all solution for the front end. My main thing with my car is I wanted to take it to the autocross and run it hard. With reading I have found that stock suspension modified a little bit will handle very well. Just my two cents.

 

[Edbert]

(I use the term "you" in the generic sense here, I am not speaking to anyone directly)

The MII makes sense if you need the room for a monstrously large motor. If you have a 67-70 and don't want more than 520 cubic inches then you can keep your shock towers and structural integrity intact.

If you want to saw it up so you can put a motor with less displacement than your little 289 then I question much more about the goals for your project than the MII aspects.

 

[ultrastang]

Hey there Ultra, you back from the dead or just lurking all this time?

I just wanted to say thanks for your information. I got a 2.3L 1993 booster into my 67 with a Wilwood MC and Cobra front discs, your site made it much easier!

Ha ha!

From 2003-2005, I had a job schedule of working anywhere from 60-90 hours per week, with vertually no weekends or holidays off. After 2 years and 2 months of that, I'd had enough and walked away from that job.

I currently work for NTS (National Technical Systems) out in The Area in East Camden, Arkansas. We are an independent testing firm that does extensive ordnace testing for the government/U.S. military (rockets, missiles, etc.) Here's a couple of video clips showing some of the things we do where I work.

http://www.ntscorp.com/news/nts_camden.html

http://www.ntscorp.com/news/historychannel.html

Now that I have a more "normal" work schedule again, I have more time to devote to working on my Mustang and developing conversion parts for the betterment of the Mustang world.

I'm glad the information on my website helped you install the Fox brake booster in your '67.

www.ultrastang.com

 

[ultrastang]

ultrastang: I went to your website. Do you have any prices anywhere? also with the cobra rear discs is it compatible to use a parking brake? sorry to hijack the thread.

The SN-95 parking brake cables can be modified to connect into the existing brake cable system. You could also use a Lokar cable setup.

The bracket order information isn't online yet at my website, since this section is still "under construction," but here's a link to the page showing the SN-95 rear disc conversion bracket kit components:

http://www.ultrastang.com/Ultrainfo.asp?Page_ID=20

I had done a lot of looking at other "professional" offerings from people like Curries & Disc Brakes R Us, to name a few, and all I can see that they offer is a means to mount the rotors and calipers --and nothing else. I put a lot of thought into my own design and took it several steps beyond what they offer.

With my design, I also incorporated the retention of the factory splash shields, I figured out how to rigidly mount the stock flexible brake hoses to the housing without welding them on, and I figured out how to retain the use of the factory Anti-moan caliper support brackets as well.

I just recently released the V6/GT brackets, and I've sold two sets of conversion brackets for the SN-95 V6/GT 10½" solid rotor design. One bracket set went to Washington state, and the other went to Montana. The SN-95 Cobra brackets are currently being produced at the machine shop, and should be ready for sale in about two weeks.

The kit price is $150.00, which includes all the parts pictured, and also includes the cost of shipping within the 48-states.