Alignment finally close to specs

65fastbackresto · Feb 6, 2008

2 dg caster left, 1.9 right.

0 camber left, .4 right

toe 1/8 both sides

car drives better then it ever has, but still darts around when hitting dips or big bumps, is this normal?

Also check my signature, you`ll see the list of new parts.

I cant figure this out, I either done something wrong....or some part is not working right. One thing I was told wouldn`t hurt it but always wondered about, using regular bolts in the lower control arms versus using the stock ones (which I didnt use) I dont really see where this could hurt anything myself....

Something aint right still, I need more tips and suggestions.

SoCalCruising · Feb 6, 2008

"Self-steer" was reduced greatly after I increased caster tp between 3-4 degrees.

65 fastback · Feb 6, 2008

65fastbackresto said:
...but still darts around when hitting dips or big bumps....

It sounds like classic bumpsteer to me. Here are a couple of links explaining bumpsteer - http://www.mustangandfords.com/techarticles/mufp_0611_bumpsteer_explained/index.html & http://www.bakerprecision.com/longacr17a.htm
Bumpsteer is pretty common in early Mustangs, especially if they have been lowered and use modern high performance, low profile tires. Basically, as the suspension moves up and down, the unequal length upper and lower contol arms want to pull the wheel in (toe-in) or move it out (toe-out) as the suspension travels. This makes the car dart from side to side.

I had bad bumpsteer in my car. It was especially noticable at highway speeds when crossing over a heavy crown in the road. I would cross the crown and my car would dive for the shoulder, correct and cross over to the other side and I would chase that shoulder.

There are two good fixes for bumpsteer, Pro-Motorsports Bumpsteer corrector kit - http://www.pro-motorsports.com/?page=article_3 & the Baer Tracker Kit - http://www.streetortrack.com/Baer-T...r-1965-66-Ford-Mustangs-3261001-pr-17584.html

Tim

gtss · Feb 6, 2008

perhaps I am reading your numbers wrong, but 1/8 " ??? toe on each side,
by my math would equal 1/4" total toe in, that sounds quite high to me
and excessive toe in can lead to darting and wandering also
I forget what mine is set to but a total of 1/8 would probably be more like it
gtss

65fastbackresto · Feb 7, 2008

The alignment guy said 1/8 toe

I may have misinterpreted that, but I think 65 fastback is on to something with the bumpsteer issue. I`ll talk to John at Opentracker and see how he wants to resolve this, bout all the parts up there are his anyway, he`ll have a fix I`m sure.

Thnaks guys.

mikethebike · Feb 7, 2008

If you lowered the car you WILL get bump steer unless you install a kit to relocate the outer tie-rod end. The posted links will do a good job of educating you on this problem.

65fastbackresto · Feb 7, 2008

Its lowered one inch

has shelby drop, and 17 inch rims. I think I probably should have bumpsteer from what I read of those articles.

Looks like the tracker units are more appropriate for my application being as I have manual steering, although the other stuff looks very interesting....

65 fastback · Feb 7, 2008

They both have their advantages. I have the Baer Trackers and they solved my problems. They, also, replace a bushing with a hemispherical bearing on the rod end, so they help to reduce steering effort on a manual steer car.

The installation seems pretty involved, but mine were installed with a small amount of trial and error and have resolved my bumpsteer issues. Once they are installed you can remove the bottom retaining bolt and move the shims around, then road test. The final installation on my car was to align the shims so that the upper and lower control arms were parallel at resting ride height.

Tim

65fastbackresto · Feb 7, 2008

I`m missing something here obviously, help me

65 fastback said:
They both have their advantages. I have the Baer Trackers and they solved my problems. They, also, replace a bushing with a hemispherical bearing on the rod end, so they help to reduce steering effort on a manual steer car.

The installation seems pretty involved, but mine were installed with a small amount of trial and error and have resolved my bumpsteer issues. Once they are installed you can remove the bottom retaining bolt and move the shims around, then road test. The final installation on my car was to align the shims so that the upper and lower control arms were parallel at resting ride height.

Tim

I thought the baer tracker only changed the point where the outer tie rod end attached to the spindle, giving it some angle that it lost when I lowered the car.....

CraigMBA · Feb 7, 2008

SoCalCruising said:
"Self-steer" was reduced greatly after I increased caster tp between 3-4 degrees.

Bingo.

When you took the pitman arm and removed the self-centering bushing out of it. More caster (thank 2 degrees) is absolutely necessary if you go the roller pitman kit.

There is a lot of confusion on "bump steer".

If you hit a bump and your car turns, you may or may not have bump steer. You certainly have a problem!

"Bump steer" (aka the kit that Baer sells) is something that allows changes to be made to the spindle hieght on a car. This allows taloring of the toe change so as the suspension rises and falls, toe remains unchanged. "Bump steer" refers to this toe change upon suspension movement. To set these up correctly, you need a bump steer gauge and some time. You can do it yourself, and you'll have to. No alignment shop unless the tech is a hard core amatuer roadracer is going to be able to handle it.

If you have zero bump steer and your car darts when hitting bumps, it doesn't have enough caster. IMO if you add more caster in your car, and ignore the bump steer, you'll be very happy.

c24sc · Feb 7, 2008

mm.. been reading up on this stuff as my 66 is almost ready to be on the road with new 17s and lowered stance. But with the stock upper arms and strut rods, the only way to get more caster is to remove shims. Now do you remove shims from the front or rear bolt on the upper control arm? I'm assuming its from the front, but its a pain in the ass trial and error procedure.

any input?

Nate

Helmantel · Feb 8, 2008

You have two things on your car that increased bumpsteer: Shelby drop and Granada spindles. The wide, low profile tires don't increase the bumpsteer, but probably make it more noticable. At least I noticed a difference when changing tires (all were 15").

My car has the same setup and darts and wanders a little too. It's not a huge problem, but there is sure room for improvement. I'm going to install a Baer kit, one day, when my garage is finally finished and when my newborn daughter sleeps.....

65fastbackresto · Feb 8, 2008

I`m gonna add a little more castor myself and see what happens.

c24sc
mm.. been reading up on this stuff as my 66 is almost ready to be on the road with new 17s and lowered stance. But with the stock upper arms and strut rods, the only way to get more caster is to remove shims. Now do you remove shims from the front or rear bolt on the upper control arm? I'm assuming its from the front, but its a pain in the ass trial and error procedure.

any input?

Nate, you would add shims to the front bolt of the arm, or take shims out of the back, or both. Your goal is to move the upper ball joint backwards in the wheel well. I had to stand over my alignment guy and make him do it right, he kept trying to use ONLY the adjustable strut rods to set the castor, which put the tires too far forward in the wheel well.

Take this to the bank, MAKE SURE YOUR ALIGNMENT GUY IS OLD SCHOOL AND TAKES PRIDE IN HIS WORK, it takes 3 or 4 hours on an alignment rack to get one of these old cars aligned, and I`ve seen it happen twice that the techs just got tired of jacking with it, and were willing to let sub standard work roll out the door for times sake.

CraigMBA · Feb 8, 2008

65fastbackresto said:
Take this to the bank, MAKE SURE YOUR ALIGNMENT GUY IS BILLING YOU BY THE HOUR AND TAKES PRIDE IN HIS WORK, it takes 3 or 4 hours on an alignment rack to get one of these old cars aligned, and I`ve seen it happen twice that the techs just got tired of jacking with it, and were willing to let sub standard work roll out the door for times sake.

FYP.

If you get a guy who's charging you $39 to do your alignment, you won't be happy. I've finally gave up and spent the $200 for the tools to do my own after I moved away from the shop 65 described. All you really need is a caster/camber gauge and a couple of tape measures, but you can buy the toe gauge or build your own if you want to do it with one person.

The alignment they did cost me four hours at $65 an hour. Worth every penny.

NasaGT · Feb 8, 2008

CraigMBA said:
I've finally gave up and spent the $200 for the tools to do my own after I moved away from the shop 65 described.

Where did you get your tools? I *really* would like to do alignments myself so I'd love to know what and where you got your tools from. A friend of mine bought a caster/camber setup, but it wouldn't work on his car for some reason ( I never got the details out of him ). I don't want to make the same mistake he did.

CraigMBA · Feb 8, 2008

Take a picture of your front wheel and post it, I'll post the appropriate part numbers.

thehueypilot · Feb 9, 2008

NasaGT said:
Where did you get your tools? I *really* would like to do alignments myself so I'd love to know what and where you got your tools from. A friend of mine bought a caster/camber setup, but it wouldn't work on his car for some reason ( I never got the details out of him ). I don't want to make the same mistake he did.

I finally gave up on the alignment shops and bought a alignment fixture as well for about $200 from Summit racing as: http://store.summitracing.com/partd...&N=700+4294925139+4294919397+115&autoview=sku.
I have aligned my 68 and my 93 race car with very good results.

Tim

65fastbackresto · Feb 11, 2008

My guy charged $90 for the first time

this was a fresh alignment with all new parts up front, so it takes a bit more tweaking then when you just change tires around. He did say it should go back to the normal rate next time though, $39 or $49, something like that.

c24sc · May 6, 2008

I picked up the spc fastrax camber/caster gauge (148 cdn )and spent 3hrs doing the alignment. I originally dropped my bag of sorted shims so i started by guessing.
0* camber and -2* caster on left.
-2* camber and -4 caster on right.

2nd try
-3/4* camber and +6 caster on left
+3/4* canber and +8 caster on right.

still have a lot of adjusting/trial and error to do. But its getting there. Seems that the drivers side has 1/2 the amount of shims as the right side needs. Wishing i bought that montr carlo bar before got this far..lol.. doh.

Nate

chromedog · May 8, 2008

i used to be the guy who would blame bump steer any time an early mustang had an alignment issue, until i took the time to do a proper alignment for myself, and i now feel bump steer gets a bum rap most of the time.the thing to remember is not to get the car close, and allow for the crown of the road, but to ignore the crown, and get both sides exactly the same if at all possible. even though you might not get the caster exactly 3 degrees positive, for instance, but you will be happier with the results in the long run...

Alignment finally close to specs

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