Any Advantage to Swapping Cams?

93GreenLX · Apr 25, 2005

Ok, on that advice I will. There is a shop about an hour from here that gets 130RWHP out of these motors on a regular basis.(Or so I'm told)

Touring23 · Apr 25, 2005

Cool
Good luck and keep us posted.

93GreenLX · Apr 25, 2005

Thanks, I guess I will need new followers also, huh.......

Touring23 · Apr 25, 2005

Nope. I'm still using my stock rollers.

vristang · Apr 25, 2005

bhuff30 said:
Do some research on compression ratios. Dan'l from the board milled his head .060, but that was slightly too much for 87. I think it gave him around 11:1 lol. I ran 10:1 on 87 without a problem.
I havn't matched the gaskets. You'd be better off porting the head.

How much milling was required to get to 10:1?

I would like to do this on my 87.

93GreenLX · Apr 26, 2005

Guess I should start a list of everything that is needed or to be done.

Needed
Ford a237 cam or equivilent
Gasket and Seal set
Front Cam seal
Oil Restrictor

To Be Done
Mill the head to close to 10:1
Port and Polish Head.
Port intake (including port matching to head)
3 angle valve job

I know I'm missing a few things........

93GreenLX · Apr 26, 2005

The guy who owns the shop told me that it will run about a grand to disassemble the engine, do all the work(mill .40) (minus porting the head.) all parts including the cam. and reassembly. He said it would be in the range of 140hp. He recommended not porting the heads because the compression would have to be increased dramatically, along with a much larger intake to compensate and a few other things. He also said he would turbo it if I wanted but I declined. He uses Racer Walsh and Esslinger mainly. He races boats using the 2.3 Lima and ended up 4th in the nation last year.(This part he didn't tell me, I researched it to see how legit he was as far as knowledge of these motors.

93GreenLX · Apr 26, 2005

The .040 mill job(not 0.40) is what he said would be required for a 10:1 compression

93GreenLX · Apr 26, 2005

Oh and some bowl work too he said

bhuff30 · Apr 26, 2005

If you like spending money, it sounds like a nice combo. The 140hp might be a little high depending on what else you have. The stock exhaust would be quite a restriction. I don't recall if you were the one that had the long tube and 2.5" or not though. Also, I hope you have a manual, because you'll like the cam a lot more if you do. I ran the slider grind of the A237 in my NA auto, and it was a dead dog off the line.
If you are mechanically inclinded, you might consider pulling the head off yourself and slapping it back on.

Touring23 · Apr 26, 2005

Wait a sec.....

The engine's out, right?
Getting it on Thursday

Dude. Pop that head off there your self. It's a piece of cake. Then, don't take it to that guy! ~$150-$200 should cover disassemble, hot-tank, mill, valve job, and reassemble. Another $80 for head bolts and head gasket.
Keep telephoning. There are better deals to be found.

The .040 mill job(not 0.40) is what he said would be required for a 10:1 compression

Don't assume anything. Use the CR calculator on the KB web site I posted earlier. Here are the data:
*edit*
Cylinder head volume 60cc-62cc (factory)
piston head volume 2.5cc
gasket thickness .045"
gasket bore 3.93"
cylinder bore 3.78" (.030" overbore->3.81")
deck clearance .015"
stroke 3.13"
rod length 5.205"
IVC 38* ABDC@.050" for the -A237 cam

93GreenLX · Apr 27, 2005

Dude. Pop that head off there your self. It's a piece of cake. Then, don't take it to that guy! ~$150-$200 should cover disassemble, hot-tank, mill, valve job, and reassemble. Another $80 for head bolts and head gasket.
Keep telephoning. There are better deals to be found.[/QUOTE]
What about porting?(both intake and heads)

Gotta get the cylinders honed and the intake fully ported along with a port match too, right?

A 10:1 compression is achieved according to the calculator by a cylinder head volume of 50.35cc's/3.071 cubic inches compared to a stock 62 cc's/3.782 cubic inches. So 10-11 cc's need to be removed what that means in real life, i don't know however

I am NOT paying someone a grand for his work so no worries there.

I do have a pacesetter longtube and 2.5" all the way back, no cats.

93GreenLX · Apr 27, 2005

93GreenLX said:
A 10:1 compression is achieved according to the calculator by a cylinder head volume of 50.35cc's/3.071 cubic inches compared to a stock 62 cc's/3.782 cubic inches. QUOTE]
or 51.33/3.131 on a 0.030 cylinder bore.

My Helm Ford Service manual showsCylinder head and valve train CC volume to be 57.35-60.35

Touring23 · Apr 27, 2005

What about porting?(both intake and heads)
You can do the intake yourself; just need to find an electric drill and a rotary rasp from the hardware store. I wouldn't pay to have it done, there's not much to be gained (see my flowbench data).
The cost to port the head will depend on the work. Let's call the clean, mill & valve job stage 1 at <$200. Stage 2 would be actual reshaping of the ports with a grinder (in addition to stage 1); I would expect maybe an additional....$200. Finally, a full-boogey Stage 3 with oversize valves, intake unshrouding, and cc matching....an additional....$200. These aren't firm numbers, consider them more like guidelines.

Gotta get the cylinders honed and the intake fully ported along with a port match too, right?
The cylinders should already be honed as part of the rebuild or you're getting hosed.
The intake port match thing again???

A 10:1 compression is achieved according to the calculator by a cylinder head volume of 50.35cc's/3.071 cubic inches compared to a stock 62 cc's/3.782 cubic inches. So 10-11 cc's need to be removed what that means in real life, i don't know however
I had to change the sign on the deck clearance value to suit KB's protocol. You'll have to recalculate. Mill .007" for each cc to be removed, that is, 10cc=mill .070". Take it easy with the compression if this is your wife's daily driver. She probably won't be happy paying ~$30 to fill it with premium every week.
Brian, what do you think? Does this match your experience?\

*edit* Yeah, I see your new post. I would say since you haven't cc'ed yours, use a lower cc number for an extra margin of safety. You can always go back and mill more in the future.

bhuff30 · Apr 27, 2005

You start with 9:1 compression, which has a total volume of 71.88cc. Subtract the milled volume (.040/.007 = 5.71cc) and you end up with 9.7:1 compression with a volume of 66.16cc. That would still be fine on 87 octane.
Everything Touring has told you is dead on.
Don't worry about intake port matching, thats a waste. Ford did that work already and made the heads intake port like a funnel from the intake.
I don't know what the shop was talking about with not porting it because you'd have to change the compression. That seems crazy to me. The biggest restriction by far is the head. Obviously, you don't want the same port job they would give to an oval track racer, but they should be able to clean up the valve bowls, valve shrouding, and valve stem bump to get the head flowing a little better.
On the compression ratio thing, do a search for what Dan'l did several years ago. As I recall, he milled the head on this dual plug motor .060. Since he started with 9.5:1, he ended up with 10.7:1. Keeping in mind that he couldn't adjust the timing, he said it would ping a little on 87, but went away with midgrade. That was a dual plug engine, but still, you see that you can get away with a lot of compression on the street.

93GreenLX · Apr 28, 2005

For some reason a search for all posts by Dan'l results in 97 matches when he's made over 1500......grrrrrrrr. I tried searching for over an hour. The only thing I did find is that he regrets milling 0.060 over. I think that's plenty enough to keep me satisfied @ 0.040 over regardless of what exact compression it brings. I, too have the DP motor and don't want to go TOOOOO far.

Ok Ok I'll stop on the port match talk. I am really excited about getting into the intake and porting it out but at the same time am REALLY scared because I have ABSOLUTELY no idea what I am doing.

If I bore it will all the stock internals fit? Geez I hate being a newb at anything.

Also there are no percieved problems with using the original follower with the A237 or equivilant cam?

Touring23 · Apr 28, 2005

The only thing I did find is that he regrets milling 0.060 over. I think that's plenty enough to keep me satisfied @ 0.040 over regardless of what exact compression it brings. I, too have the DP motor and don't want to go TOOOOO far.
Good call

....am REALLY scared because I have ABSOLUTELY no idea what I am doing.
The intake is no big deal. Really. Just take your time with it and don't trumpet it.

If I bore it will all the stock internals fit?
Um. What?!

Also there are no percieved problems with using the original follower with the A237 or equivilant cam?
No worries. Your '93 all ready has the roller followers.

93GreenLX · Apr 28, 2005

If I bore it will all the stock internals fit?
Um. What?!

N/M I figured it out

Also there are no percieved problems with using the original follower with the A237 or equivilant cam?
No worries. Your '93 all ready has the roller followers. [/QUOTE]

I realize that but what bout the fact that they may be worn, that wouldn't make enough of a difference to matter?

bhuff30 · Apr 28, 2005

Roller follower for all practical purposed don't wear. They act like a rotating wheel on the road instead of a locked up tire on your trailer (think slider cam).

t3-svo · May 3, 2005

What about cams for an 86 svo?

Any Advantage to Swapping Cams?

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