Auto to Manual

Route666 · Jun 21, 2004

With regards to converting a stang from auto to manual:

Will the manual gearbox cross-member be a direct bolt-in into an automatic car?

Is a different pedal box required, or does the auto pedal box have space for the clutch pedal?

Anything else require changing besides the addition of clutch mechanics?

Ta!

ratio411 · Jun 21, 2004

If you use a short tail Toploader, stock in all Mustangs, you would need the mount/crossmember/driveshaft of a C4 Stang. I would say the shaft from an FMX would work too, but it seems I am the only one to have swapped from C4 to FMX using the same shaft while others post it didn't work, so I won't really commit to that.
If you already have a long shaft Toploader, you need all the parts from a C6 car as they interchange.
On my pedals, I couldn't find a direct swap, so I hybrid my pedals and bracket with those from another old Ford. It didn't take much doing... I used the manual pedals from a donor Falcon and swapped them to my bracket. I found it easiest to use my brake pedal. I just cut it down to manual brake pedal size (needed a welder too), then put the pad from the Falcon brake pedal onto the modded auto pedal from my car.
Of course you have to cut the floor pan too. Just put some primer or something on the bare metal after cutting so you don't have instant floor pan rust.
Good luck
Dave

blandq · Jun 21, 2004

Why do want to go to a manual transmission ?

ratio411 · Jun 21, 2004

blandq said:
Why do want to go to a manual transmission ?

I don't know about the original poster, but I find this an odd question. Alot of folks, like me, just like shifting gears so much more than an auto. It makes you more of a part of the driving experience and makes you feel like you and the car are one.
Dave

tomcatgt · Jun 21, 2004

I did the opposite on my 65. Went from a 4 speed to an auto. I just got the automatic pedals from a donor car and exchanged them. That would probably be your easiest route. Everything was basically just a swap out. Best I can remember the crossmember is the same.IMO- It's tougher to go from a standard to an auto because of kickdown,safety switch, fluid cooler ect.

blandq · Jun 21, 2004

I guess it depends what your goals are.

I initially thought I wanted to go to a standard transmission. The man I was recommended to asked me the same question. He said "If it's just a control thing, an auto can do the same. If it's a belief that the car will be faster, then your simply wrong" Boy that got my attention!

At this point I am a re-born automatic believer. My C-4 is a full manual automatic trans. Meaning, if you put it in third gear at light, it starts in third gear. The transmission will not shift, ever, by itself....I control ever shift. With a 2800 stall it is easy to load up the motor, even on the street, but there's no foot work on the clutch. The transmission is built to my cam and car weight and is rated @ just over 600HP giving me about 50-75 HP margin with the NOS on. Without, which is 99% of the time, I can beat the dog snot out it....it is no longer the weak link in my drive train. The non-decompression first is a real kick on the street. Basically, let's say you romped on it in first to say 4500-5500 RPM and then let-off on the gas. In a normal automatic the first gear would then be placing a huge load on the motor...converter is locked up= nose dive on the front end and a huge weight shift forward. In my car when you let off it feels like you through it in nuetral and the car coasts, RPMs go down, etc. Now let's say the light changes and you want to romp on it. In the first case, normal trans, you need to fight the nose heavy attitude of the car and re-transfer that weight back. In my car, I just put my foot in it, the engine ramps back to 2800 and the TC begins to lock down and the nose comes up immediately.....The guy next to you will wonder what the hell you've got in your car, sounds like an auto, acts like a standard....faster than both.

For performance, driving enjoyment, simplicity, and weight (I can pick-up an entire C-4 by myself) the C-4 small block Ford combo in a 2500lb. car is pretty hard to beat.

THE DRAW BACK: Given the ratios in a C-4 (3rd = 1:1) and a 3.80 rear gear, I do not do many highway trips cuz the Rs get to high. The fix is an after market unit from Gear Vendors. This device gives you REAL "gear spliting" meaning 6 forward gears, shifts at any speed, and can handle the track.....unlike traditional AODs

(3.80 Auburns in the rear)

Hack · Jun 21, 2004

I think it's boring driving an automatic. Yeah an automatic can be built to perform better and so on, but I just think it's fun stirring the gears myself. Driving a stick quickly and smoothly is not easy, and I enjoy that challenge as well.

I would never buy a performance car with an auto if I had the chance to get a manual instead.

Now I can see if your whole reason to have the car is to go fast in the quarter, you might want something else. I just want to have fun driving on the street.

70MustangGrande · Jun 21, 2004

I'd like to say that if you do a lot of changing of parts to your engine, trying to get the power you're looking for, it's easier to just change your personal shift points when you get on it with a manual instead of manually setting them in an automatic for future use.

Im dropping one in on my car first chance I get. Now, to get those clutch pedals......

Route666 · Jun 22, 2004

ratio411 said:
I don't know about the original poster, but I find this an odd question. Alot of folks, like me, just like shifting gears so much more than an auto. It makes you more of a part of the driving experience and makes you feel like you and the car are one.
Dave

Yep, that's about right for me too.

I'm into mechanical efficiency too, which a manual has over an auto.

They are also simpler in their design. The simple things are often the best.

cobra1 · Jun 22, 2004

i did it on mine. hard part was the ASSist spring under the dash. shortened the driveshaft, installed pedal. hardest part was the boot on the shifter-go figure.....

Route666 · Jun 22, 2004

So the pedal box does have provision for the clutch pedal to be put in?

blandq · Jun 22, 2004

IIIIIInteresting comments. I especially enjoyed the one about

"I'd like to say that if you do a lot of changing of parts to your engine, trying to get the power you're looking for, it's easier to just change your personal shift points when you get on it with a manual instead of manually setting them in an automatic for future use."

I didn't realize I touched such a nerve.

geegee · Jun 22, 2004

Route666 said:
With regards to converting a stang from auto to manual:

Will the manual gearbox cross-member be a direct bolt-in into an automatic car?

Is a different pedal box required, or does the auto pedal box have space for the clutch pedal?

Anything else require changing besides the addition of clutch mechanics?

Ta!

You've received some good replies already so will bypass what already been said. Here's some added info:

a. Clutch linkage. Beginning at the pedal there is a pushrod and cotter or circlip. The rod passes through the firewall where there is a gasket/bracket assembly. On the engine side is a equalizer bar to reverse the mechanical motion from forward/aft to aft/forward. On the lower arm of the equalizer there is a lower adjustable pushrod (sometimes the upper rod is adjustable). A cotter pin or circlip holds the lower pushrod on. There is a bushing that fits into the lower arm. Typically a return spring holds tension on the linkage so it stays together during shifts.

b. Clutch box. At the back of the engine is a flywheel. The flyweel carries the clutch disc and pressure plate. A pilot bearing is installed in the back of the crankshaft. A fork assembly with throwout bearing operates the clutch by sliding fore/aft on the input collar to the manual transmission. A bell housing covers the clutchbox keeping out dust and road grime while providing a fulcrum for the fork.

c. Shifter. Toploader 4-speeds (3 speeds) require and external shifter mechanism. There are several alternatives in the aftermarket. You can see these at www.toploaderheaven.com.

Point of message is there is a lot of small parts besides the transmission that need to be budgeted for. Doing this with good used parts in my area costs about $2,500 USD. This will buy good used and a rebuilt Toploader. For about the same money you can install a T5 five-speed using a brand new tranny. The thing to do is to get a mechanical breakdown of all the parts you need. There are aftermarket illustrations to aid you in seeing everything that needs doing. You need to price out ALL the parts and ALL the options before spending the first penny.

Now after you've done this and are confident its the best that you can make it, be prepared to see nothing but the tail lights of the automatic that you're racing against.

Jeff

ratio411 · Jun 22, 2004

geegee said:
...be prepared to see nothing but the tail lights of the automatic that you're racing against.

That is way too general a statement there my friend!

There are so many variables in car/transmission/driver skills/traction/etc...
A manual tranny gets more power to the wheels than an auto due to less parasitic loss and slippage, the only thing that makes folks consider an auto faster is drag racing. An auto shifts more consistently and faster than most human's doing the shifting, but that is not always true. It's just the easy way out for a driver that doesn't want to be inconvienenced with learning to shift well.
Dave

BAD67FUN · Jun 22, 2004

1/4 mile.... Automatic (correctly built)

Road Racing..... Manual.

My two cents....

washMO66 · Jun 22, 2004

BAD67FUN said:
1/4 mile.... Automatic (correctly built)

Road Racing..... Manual.

My two cents....

Couldn't have put it better myself..........

and I agree there is nothing like a manually shifted car for the street but if you want consistant and quicker ET's stick with the slush box.

70MustangGrande · Jun 22, 2004

blandq said:
I didn't realize I touched such a nerve.

I didn't realize that you touched it!

When I said personally, I just meant the personal charisteristics of the driver as to what kind of driving that they tend to adhere towards. I have a habit of buying the Tach needle into redline (slightly) before I push my slapstick to hit the next gear. I don't do it often (fortuantly) otherwise an engine rebuild may be in the near future...

Route666 · Jun 23, 2004

geegee said:
You've received some good replies already so will bypass what already been said. Here's some added info:

a. Clutch linkage. Beginning at the pedal there is a pushrod and cotter or circlip. The rod passes through the firewall where there is a gasket/bracket assembly. On the engine side is a equalizer bar to reverse the mechanical motion from forward/aft to aft/forward. On the lower arm of the equalizer there is a lower adjustable pushrod (sometimes the upper rod is adjustable). A cotter pin or circlip holds the lower pushrod on. There is a bushing that fits into the lower arm. Typically a return spring holds tension on the linkage so it stays together during shifts.

b. Clutch box. At the back of the engine is a flywheel. The flyweel carries the clutch disc and pressure plate. A pilot bearing is installed in the back of the crankshaft. A fork assembly with throwout bearing operates the clutch by sliding fore/aft on the input collar to the manual transmission. A bell housing covers the clutchbox keeping out dust and road grime while providing a fulcrum for the fork.

c. Shifter. Toploader 4-speeds (3 speeds) require and external shifter mechanism. There are several alternatives in the aftermarket. You can see these at www.toploaderheaven.com.

Point of message is there is a lot of small parts besides the transmission that need to be budgeted for. Doing this with good used parts in my area costs about $2,500 USD. This will buy good used and a rebuilt Toploader. For about the same money you can install a T5 five-speed using a brand new tranny. The thing to do is to get a mechanical breakdown of all the parts you need. There are aftermarket illustrations to aid you in seeing everything that needs doing. You need to price out ALL the parts and ALL the options before spending the first penny.

Now after you've done this and are confident its the best that you can make it, be prepared to see nothing but the tail lights of the automatic that you're racing against.

Jeff

Thanks for the in-depth response, but I'm going to convert to a hydraulic TO bearing, and bypass all the linkages.

About racing: There's more to life IMO.

The question I really want to know is about the pedal box, is the auto one the same as the manual, just without the clutch pedal installed?

paintballtommy · Jun 24, 2004

blandq said:
I guess it depends what your goals are.

I initially thought I wanted to go to a standard transmission. The man I was recommended to asked me the same question. He said "If it's just a control thing, an auto can do the same. If it's a belief that the car will be faster, then your simply wrong" Boy that got my attention!

At this point I am a re-born automatic believer. My C-4 is a full manual automatic trans. Meaning, if you put it in third gear at light, it starts in third gear. The transmission will not shift, ever, by itself....I control ever shift. With a 2800 stall it is easy to load up the motor, even on the street, but there's no foot work on the clutch. The transmission is built to my cam and car weight and is rated @ just over 600HP giving me about 50-75 HP margin with the NOS on. Without, which is 99% of the time, I can beat the dog snot out it....it is no longer the weak link in my drive train. The non-decompression first is a real kick on the street. Basically, let's say you romped on it in first to say 4500-5500 RPM and then let-off on the gas. In a normal automatic the first gear would then be placing a huge load on the motor...converter is locked up= nose dive on the front end and a huge weight shift forward. In my car when you let off it feels like you through it in nuetral and the car coasts, RPMs go down, etc. Now let's say the light changes and you want to romp on it. In the first case, normal trans, you need to fight the nose heavy attitude of the car and re-transfer that weight back. In my car, I just put my foot in it, the engine ramps back to 2800 and the TC begins to lock down and the nose comes up immediately.....The guy next to you will wonder what the hell you've got in your car, sounds like an auto, acts like a standard....faster than both.

For performance, driving enjoyment, simplicity, and weight (I can pick-up an entire C-4 by myself) the C-4 small block Ford combo in a 2500lb. car is pretty hard to beat.

THE DRAW BACK: Given the ratios in a C-4 (3rd = 1:1) and a 3.80 rear gear, I do not do many highway trips cuz the Rs get to high. The fix is an after market unit from Gear Vendors. This device gives you REAL "gear spliting" meaning 6 forward gears, shifts at any speed, and can handle the track.....unlike traditional AODs

(3.80 Auburns in the rear)

what shift kit r u takling about anyways.

none67 · Jun 24, 2004

Route666 said:
The question I really want to know is about the pedal box, is the auto one the same as the manual, just without the clutch pedal installed?

I too would greatly like to hear the answer to this one.

Auto to Manual

Route666

Active Member

ratio411

blandq

ratio411

tomcatgt

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blandq

Hack

70MustangGrande

Route666

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cobra1

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Route666

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blandq

geegee

ratio411

BAD67FUN

washMO66

70MustangGrande

Route666

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paintballtommy

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none67

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