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Black Jack: Dyno action... maybe

  • Thread starter Thread starter FastDriver
  • Start date Start date May 29, 2015
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AeroCoupe

lube between the nut and the face. I know my lubes
Founding Member
Oct 28, 2001
6,164
4,257
183
Claremore, OK
Aug 24, 2026
#881
  • Aug 24, 2026
  • #881
Well that just sucks.
 
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FastDriver

I was uncomfortably high & wearing a helmet
SN Certified Technician
Sep 5, 2001
6,149
2,787
224
Vass, NC
Aug 31, 2026
#882
  • Aug 31, 2026
  • #882
Still no resolution on the vibration. I was really hoping motor mounts would clear it up. They were dry rotting. So, again, it was good maintenance, but not the cause of the vibration. For the hell of it, I swapped the plugs out, and the old ones looked ok. Definitely a colder heat range than optimal on the street, but they weren't fouled, and again no change in vibration.

I noticed the timing is a bit jumpy when the spout is in. i.e. I'll set the gun to 40*, free revving, the timing comes on up, but a once every second or so, it pops to a different timing. Seems a bit erratic. However, with the spout out, it's totally smooth and stays at 10*. And, the vibration is still there, regardless. It sounds perfectly fine. High load, low rpm (maybe 1600-ish) WOT in 6th gear is perfectly smooth. Tried bypassing the MSD, too. I'm not totally satisfied with the timing jumping like that with the spout in, but that really doesn't seem to have anything to do with the vibration.

I test drove it and decided that if it was gonna let go, then so be it. Feels strong. Can powershift and turn the tires over. I can bounce the car off the limiter for 10+ seconds in 2nd gear. So, I really don't understand what's doing this. My best guess is maybe it is flywheel or clutch imbalance related since I installed them in January about 7k miles ago, but I just don't understand why it got worse recently.

I called my local machinist. I'm gonna bite the bullet start the 306 build. I have a spare OEM block with rotating assembly on the garage floor, some good top end parts, and I've been jonesing to get into it for a coupme years. The machinist thinks he can get to work on it in October.

That's fine by me. I'll keep trying to work through it, but as long as it doesn't get any worse, I'll take my chances to run Larry at foxtoberfest, this year. If it blows, so be it.

Edit:
I thought a pilot bearing might explain things, but after rethinking it, I'd expect to detect differences when in vs out of gear. Oh well... Will keep noodling.
 
Last edited: Sep 1, 2026
Reactions: 85GTStangGuy and gkomo

85GTStangGuy

5 Year Member
May 19, 2021
1,006
629
133
Jax, Florida
Sep 2, 2026
#883
  • Sep 2, 2026
  • #883
FastDriver said:
...., I'll take my chances to run Larry at foxtoberfest, this year. If it blows, so be it.
Click to expand...

 
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FastDriver

I was uncomfortably high & wearing a helmet
SN Certified Technician
Sep 5, 2001
6,149
2,787
224
Vass, NC
Sep 7, 2026
#884
  • Sep 7, 2026
  • #884
I went back through the EEC tests today and, once everything was set up correctly and fully warmed up, the results were pretty clean.

81/82 and 44/94 are Thermactor/smog-pump related. All of that equipment is gone, so those are expected and irrelevant.

I also got the cylinder balance/contribution test working after forcing the transmission strategy to neutral because of the T56 swap. For anyone who has to do this witgout a T5, you have to use the quarterhorse to set the TRLOAD scalar to 0, which forces the computer to see 'neutral'. Anyways, it came back 9, so the EEC did not identify a weak cylinder. I ran that test 3 times, twice back to back, and then another time after playing with the idle tune for an hour. I guess that rules out ignition and injectors.

The only code I still have any interest in is the 95/96 secondary fuel-pump circuit fault. I have a FP Guage on the A-pillar & fuel pressure is not doing anything wrong. Plus, the Walbro 255 LPH pump sounds normal, so I still need to determine whether that is just related to the pump-monitor circuit/wiring or whether there is actually anything worth chasing.

As for the vibration, I had been seriously considering pulling the transmission, clutch and flywheel and tearing into that next.

I've decided I'm not doing it... I really think it's one of those or maybe the tid bit of grinding I did on the crank around the pilot bearing was enough to throw things off, but I'm already gonna do most of the work when I swap motors, anyways.

I'm moving ahead with building the other motor. When that engine is ready, everything has to come apart anyway, so I'm giving myself permission to quit obsessing over this in the meantime.

Worst case, if there really is something wrong in the current engine and I hurt it, I'm probably risking something like $2,500 in used-engine resale value. I'm willing to accept that rather than tear the car apart twice chasing a vibration I still haven't conclusively identified.

So until the new motor is ready, I'm going to act like the vibration doesn't exist and drive it like I stole it.

If it gets dramatically worse, breaks, or finally gives me an unmistakable clue, then I'll know what it was. Otherwise, I'm going to enjoy the car. So, I invite all of ya to come to foxtoberfest and watch the fireworks!
 
Last edited: Sep 7, 2026
Reactions: General karthief, gkomo, RaggedGT and 1 other person

91AOD5.0LX

I have a slight sag in my rear
5 Year Member
Feb 20, 2021
1,085
1,027
133
Lake George NY
Sep 7, 2026
#885
  • Sep 7, 2026
  • #885
So, I invite all of ya to come to foxtoberfest and watch the fireworks!
[/QUOTE]

Looking forward to it!
 
Reactions: 85GTStangGuy and FastDriver

FastDriver

I was uncomfortably high & wearing a helmet
SN Certified Technician
Sep 5, 2001
6,149
2,787
224
Vass, NC
Sep 27, 2026
#886
  • Sep 27, 2026
  • #886
I finally got curious enough to rough out what I actually have into Black Jack.

This is not a receipt-level audit, because that would be almost impossible at this point. Too many parts came from trades, spares, Marketplace deals, stuff I bought and resold, stuff moved between cars, and things I had sitting around. I had ChatGPT help me work through this thread and rough out the big pieces, while trying to back out the obvious offsets and sold parts.

A couple of rules I used:
- I did not count the T56 itself because I already had it, but did count the accessories I had to purchase to install it (bellhousing, clutch fork, 26-spline disk, etc).
- I did not count normal maintenance stuff like oil, gas, track entries, etc.
- I did not count accident/deer-strike replacement parts as “build cost.”
- I did not count general tools or spare parts that sit on the shelf, and are not really dedicated to this car, but are there "in case" or possibly for the other cars.
- I did try to back out the major stuff I sold, traded, or moved elsewhere.

The funny part is that the car started pretty cheaply the second time around. I bought it back for $3,800, sold off the T5/aluminum driveshaft/shifter/bellhousing stuff for $1,200, and later had the rear-end bump insurance claim paid me $3.3k I also backed out, which offset a surprising amount of the basis in the car after I fixed it. So, the initial cost minus just those things means Black Jack's baseline is -$1.2k! lol

So after all the mods, my best guess is that Black Jack is somewhere around a low-to-mid $20k car in actual net money tied up in it. If I look at it more like “what would this stuff cost to replicate,” it’s more like mid-to-upper $20k.

That sounds like a lot until I remember what is actually on the car now:

T56 swap, 5-lug/Cobra brakes w/ 93 Cobra booster/MC setup, Koni DAs, B-springs, MM plates, Team Z uppers & lakewood lowers, reinforced & welded torque boxes, Stifflers loop, 31-spline welded up rear with Truetrac/3.73s, GT40X/GT40 tubular/E-cam combo, QuarterHorse, ZEX kit, MSD 6+, Mark VIII/DCC fan setup & upgraded alternator, Corbeau seats, 3 sets of wheels & tires: Bullitts/CrossClimates, RE-71RS on Cobra Rs autocross setup, and the 25th Anniversary replica wheel setup with Michelin PS4S fronts and Nitto drag radials out back.

And that still leaves out the stupid number of small repair/upgrade items that add up over time. After it became my primary daily, my autocrosser, my test-n-tune car, the intent to keep it frugal went out the window, but the juice has been worth the squeeze, so far. And... when I think about what most spend on their daily driver, the average new car being over $50k, I don't feel bad at all. I'd say it's better to buy than build, but again, how often does a fuel injected, T56, 5 lugged, Cobra Braked car with A/C, heat, power steering and a comfy street suspension come up? Then, I'd still probably have to do a lot of the small things.

It also reminded me how much the car has changed character. When I bought it back, it was basically a cheap, rough, fun Fox with some good bones. At this point it’s become exactly what I wanted it to be: a car I can drive, beat on, autocross, take to the track, park, get dinged without having a nervous breakdown, and keep improving without treating it like a show car.

The other lesson is that “what you spent” and “what it’s worth” are two totally different things. I still don’t think Black Jack is some high-dollar car. It’s not worth anywhere near what it would cost to duplicate. Feels like maybe $15k if I'm lucky. But for what I actually have in it, especially after all the offsets and parts I already owned, I’m pretty happy with where I am with it, today.

Ps. I think I lied on staying away from disassembling to look for vibration causes. Hope to get into it again next weekend. The vibration seems to be from the backend, like maybe a pilot bearing. Would race as is, but if I can repair before it gets worse, I prolly should. Still planning on starting the other motor build.
 
Last edited: Oct 3, 2026
Reactions: 85GT4V, General karthief, gkomo and 4 others

DadLife0724

Advanced Member
Mar 22, 2024
407
271
73
Cooperstown, PA
Sep 28, 2026
#887
  • Sep 28, 2026
  • #887
Can't put a price on all the memories of badassery you have in it either.
 
Reactions: FastDriver and 91AOD5.0LX

Mustang5L5

That is…until I whipped out my Bissell
Mod Dude
Feb 18, 2001
43,343
18,073
224
Massachusetts
Sep 28, 2026
#888
  • Sep 28, 2026
  • #888
Oh man, you are brave trying to figure that out. I just won't add it up. My wife asked me once what I spent on the car. Remember i've had it 20+ years so a lot of money over the years went into it. But i told her to just leave that one alone because I don't want to add it up.
 
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91AOD5.0LX

I have a slight sag in my rear
5 Year Member
Feb 20, 2021
1,085
1,027
133
Lake George NY
Sep 28, 2026
#889
  • Sep 28, 2026
  • #889
I’m in the don’t wanna know camp. Lol
 
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nickyb

I gotta say i never painted my nuts, Never Ever
15 Year Member
Apr 3, 2009
3,028
1,659
163
nevada
Sep 28, 2026
#890
  • Sep 28, 2026
  • #890
Well that's something I never thought about doing $$$.
Milky has been my daily since i.got her, its been 19 years.this past July.
Being the frugal that i.am I did add up the cobra brake upgrade I did,$1,700 including rims and tires.
 
Last edited: Sep 28, 2026
Reactions: FastDriver

gkomo

now i can hopefully expect to receive the shaft
Aug 2, 2024
2,295
1,521
133
San Diego, CA
Sep 28, 2026
#891
  • Sep 28, 2026
  • #891
Lol, i'm probably $20k into my Fox (including purchase price) already, and it doesn't even run... well sort of.
 
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AeroCoupe

lube between the nut and the face. I know my lubes
Founding Member
Oct 28, 2001
6,164
4,257
183
Claremore, OK
Sep 28, 2026
#892
  • Sep 28, 2026
  • #892
Nope not gonna even go down this road. I’ve owned one since it was new and the other 7 years after it was first sold.
 
Reactions: FastDriver and DadLife0724

FastDriver

I was uncomfortably high & wearing a helmet
SN Certified Technician
Sep 5, 2001
6,149
2,787
224
Vass, NC
Oct 1, 2026
#893
  • Oct 1, 2026
  • #893
Ya know, the average new car today is over $50k. And not counting financing, maintenance, repair, gas, and other operating costs, they lose ~1/2 their value in 5 years.

If I've sunk even 25k into it and can sell for maybe 15k, that's right in line, and probably cheaper when considering no financing & liability only insurance, and cheap repairs in the long run.

It's no economy car, but I chose that financial trade off for the daily fun of driving a fox, and yeah... staying stock would help the value proposition, but as a deliberate selection for a daily driver, it's still really not a bad car to drive today, at all.
 
Reactions: Potomus Pete, 85GTStangGuy, General karthief and 1 other person
F

fasterthangas

Active Member
Oct 5, 2016
284
90
38
Phoenix
Oct 1, 2026
#894
  • Oct 1, 2026
  • #894
Don't feel bad, I have around $20k in the engine alone!
 
Reactions: FastDriver

KRUISR

10 Year Member
Apr 16, 2015
1,865
1,002
143
Oct 2, 2026
#895
  • Oct 2, 2026
  • #895
When I built my 90GT 10 years ago I was around $8-8.5k in out of pocket cost (no labor charges in there) and my son's 89 GT is looking like we will be in the $10-11k. Both of these values include cost of the car itself.
 
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TTSaleen

Active Member
Apr 27, 2025
199
193
53
NC
Oct 3, 2026
#896
  • Oct 3, 2026
  • #896
Interesting I just did a video about the costs on my new project 1990 LX. As of today, I have $26K in it including purchase price of non-running car.
And I'm not done with the interior or even touched the exterior yet.

Ryan
 
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KRUISR

10 Year Member
Apr 16, 2015
1,865
1,002
143
Oct 3, 2026
#897
  • Oct 3, 2026
  • #897
My next project that I am gathering parts for will be a Coyote swap 89 GT with some subtle customizations. I have gathered most of the parts. Out of pocket cost total should be somewhere between $10-12k CDN including the car.
 
Reactions: FastDriver

Bullitt347

I have been doing it wrong this whole time
15 Year Member
Mar 23, 2007
4,020
3,018
204
Middle of Maine
Oct 3, 2026
#898
  • Oct 3, 2026
  • #898
I will never sell my car as a running driving car.
I would lose my ass on it.
I will part it out. There is a lot more money to be had by selling individual components over time.
If I had to build the car starting today, it would cost me twice as much as it did 10 years ago. And I could not get that money back by selling the car today. Which I knew going in, race cars are just a bad investment, in fact they should never be considered an investment, but rather a calculated loss so that you can have some fun.
So while today it would take over $70K to recreate what I have, I would be lucky to get $30K today. And I can easily clear over $30K by selling off individual parts.
 
Reactions: General karthief, FastDriver and Potomus Pete

FastDriver

I was uncomfortably high & wearing a helmet
SN Certified Technician
Sep 5, 2001
6,149
2,787
224
Vass, NC
Yesterday at 10:12 PM
#899
  • Yesterday at 10:12 PM
  • #899
On Monday, Father Time is going on the dyno. If all goes well, I'll have a race tune, a 93 pump tune, and then if time allows, I'll put Black Jack on.

The goal would be a simple NA baseline, WOT timing adjustment, and then setting the timing retard from 6* using the MSD Digital 6+ box to whatever seems right on the 150 shot. Was super disappointed in the 100 shot, having picked up only 65rwhp. But I couldn't play with timing that day because the clutch was already slipping.

Before I do, I'm also gonna put a fresh WBO2 in Black Jack, or the new Zeitronix dual wideband gauge, which is coming soon, either way. I've done it all and lost another Bosch sensor, and I've determined that the Innovate MTX-L itself is the problem.
 
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