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  • 1979 - 1995 (Fox, SN95.0, & 2.3L) -General/Talk-
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Breaking up over 3500 RPM

  • Thread starter Thread starter FastDriver
  • Start date Start date Dec 6, 2011

FastDriver

I was uncomfortably high & wearing a helmet
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Vass, NC
Dec 6, 2011
#1
  • Dec 6, 2011
  • #1
Edit: Correction to the initial post. After clarification with him, I misunderstood the issue. It does not seem to be hitting a limiter, it's just breaking up (missing) so bad that he's getting out of it by 4000 RPM to prevent engine damage.

Original post:

I just bought a '95 mustang from a friend for $4500 with one catch. It hits what seems like a limiter at about 4000 RPM. Can anyone provide a list of things that could cause this problem?

My friend is extremely mechanically inclined and this situation has us both stumped.

He test the coil's spark and said it was sparking, but based on the color it looked like a weak spark. So, he tried swapping the coil with another friend's mustang, but that did not change anything. He checked the timing which he stated was "rock solid" with the spout out. To me that indicates that it probably isn't the PIP/hall-effect sensor, as I would expect erratic timing if they were an issue. He tried removing the MSD 6AL and ran the car without it, and there was no change.

This really seems like an ignition issue to me, but he believed that it could be fuel issue. Initially he saw fuel pressure drop when the car hit the "limiter," but I'm convinced that would happen simply as a result of losing boost pressure from the turbos. He also said that the AFR was never worse than low 12s, which is kinda lean for WOT at 10 psi boost, but not bad enough to act like a limiter and probably not even enough to cause detonation.

Car's mods:
Engine:
GT40X heads
Edelbrock Performer 5.0 intake (fox-style)
unknown (but probably stock HO) cam
1.72 FMS rockers
Incon twin-turbo kit

Fuel:
Walbro 255 LPH pump
AFPR
42 lbs/hr injectors
in-car fuel pressure guage

Tuning:
MSD6AL box (he removed this and it did not change the problem)
Tweecer RT
Wideband O2 with gauge (innovate brand, I think?)

Drivetrain:
6spd transmission ('03 Cobra)

I'm not sure if I missed anything, but if I get a chance, I'll have him jump on here to further clarify what he's done and any other mods I left out which may affect the problem.

Thanks for any ideas.
 

toyman

10 Year Member
Jul 19, 2007
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Vernon BC
Dec 6, 2011
#2
  • Dec 6, 2011
  • #2
Just a guess but I would look to the Tweecer. The previous owner may have set a limit switch some some reason. Since you have the Tweecer RT version what do you see happening to the fuel at 4000 rpm? A log may provide a solution.
 

VibrantRedGT

"STANGNET'S PENGUIN SMACKER"
15 Year Member
Nov 29, 1999
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Boca Raton, Florida
Dec 7, 2011
#3
  • Dec 7, 2011
  • #3
The schrader on the fuel line for the 94-95's is not hidden behind the alternator like the FOX. Put a gauge on it and find out what the fuel pressure is set at. Also, like mentioned data log with the Tweecer and you should be able to see what's going on at 4,000 rpm.
 

Noobz347

Stangnet Facilities Maint Tech... Er... Janitor
Admin Dude
Jan 4, 1985
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#4
  • Dec 7, 2011
  • #4
Test voltage going into the coil. Check for a voltage drop when the throttle is mashed upon. Repeat the proceedure with the headlights and highbeams on.
 

FastDriver

I was uncomfortably high & wearing a helmet
SN Certified Technician
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Vass, NC
Dec 7, 2011
#5
  • Dec 7, 2011
  • #5
Thanks for the feedback guys.

The previous owner is my best friend, and unless it somehow happened accidentally, I don't see how he wouldn't have realized that he was setting a limiter. He still has the car, as I am in Germany. Hopefully, I can get him in here to explain the symptoms more accurately. He runs a fuel pressure gauge, and a wideband O2 sensor. As mentioned, he initially reported a fuel pressure drop, but in subsequent tests he attributed the drop to a loss of boost (fuel pressure rises 1:1 with boost pressure). So, a drop from 10 psi to 0 psi should register a 10 psi fuel pressure drop.

Don't know if he actually datalogged a run, though. I'll ask him to. Testing the voltage to the coil is something I hadn't considered. If that were poor, then it wouldn't matter which coil he was running, right? But what would that indicate? Bad ground, voltage regulator, battery, alternator, or deficient wiring/terminal connections, right?
 

FastDriver

I was uncomfortably high & wearing a helmet
SN Certified Technician
Sep 5, 2001
6,086
2,687
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Vass, NC
Dec 7, 2011
#6
  • Dec 7, 2011
  • #6
I ordered a new MSD Blaster coil and a new accel TFI module from Summit. I doubt they'll fix the problem, but they're cheap and easy, regularly cause problems in these cars, and I'd just like the peace of mind to rule them out.
 

Noobz347

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#7
  • Dec 7, 2011
  • #7
FastDriver said:
Don't know if he actually datalogged a run, though. I'll ask him to. Testing the voltage to the coil is something I hadn't considered. If that were poor, then it wouldn't matter which coil he was running, right? But what would that indicate? Bad ground, voltage regulator, battery, alternator, or deficient wiring/terminal connections, right?
Click to expand...


It could be ANY of that. The voltage drop doesn't have to be HUGE to cause hair pulling on a boosted app.

Oh... the part where you said fuel pressure was rising 1:1... is he running an FMU or boost referenced FPR? If so, there's a chance that the diphram in such a device has developed a hole.
 

95Vert383AOD

15 Year Member
Jun 10, 2008
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Dec 7, 2011
#8
  • Dec 7, 2011
  • #8
What Mass air meter are you using? I had a C&L and couldn't figure out why my car dropped off in power right at 4000-4300rpm. I went to a SCT meter and my problem vanished. Maybe your meter is pegging.
 

FastDriver

I was uncomfortably high & wearing a helmet
SN Certified Technician
Sep 5, 2001
6,086
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Vass, NC
Dec 7, 2011
#9
  • Dec 7, 2011
  • #9
Ok... weird. First of all, I misunderstood what the problem was. It turns out that the car had a bad miss above about 3500 RPM.

So, per your suggestions, while I was on the phone with him, he plugged in the laptop and initially couldn't get it to datalog. I guess he reloaded the tune and when he was finally able to receive signals from all of the sensors, he noticed that the Air Charge temp, ACT according to the TWEECER, was around 19x*, and that the Engine coolant temp was around 108*. I guess the signals are backwards, or the sensors are way off. He went to the parts store to buy a replacement IAT sensor, and datalogged the drive there.

When he got on the car, he said it suddenly ran fine. The only thing he did to the car was reload the tune, and unplug one of the temp sensors.... I'm guessing it was the ACT/IAT sensor, and I'm guessing that the computer was pulling a hell of a lot of timing thinking that the IAT was around 190 degrees. Still, what doesn't add up is that the computer has not been recently retuned, nor have any of the sensors been changed. So, why the car went from running like crap to normal again is still a mystery to me.
 

FastDriver

I was uncomfortably high & wearing a helmet
SN Certified Technician
Sep 5, 2001
6,086
2,687
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Vass, NC
Dec 7, 2011
#10
  • Dec 7, 2011
  • #10
95Vert383AOD said:
What Mass air meter are you using? I had a C&L and couldn't figure out why my car dropped off in power right at 4000-4300rpm. I went to a SCT meter and my problem vanished. Maybe your meter is pegging.
Click to expand...

The meter is the stock Incon meter tuned for 30lbs injectors, but that has been compensated for with the injector slope in the tune. However, we were suspicious of the MAF too. So we watched it at idle and under load and it was not giving abnormal numbers.

Noobz347 said:
It could be ANY of that. The voltage drop doesn't have to be HUGE to cause hair pulling on a boosted app.

Oh... the part where you said fuel pressure was rising 1:1... is he running an FMU or boost referenced FPR? If so, there's a chance that the diphram in such a device has developed a hole.
Click to expand...

Just a boost referenced AFPR. Without a vac reference we're getting 39 psi, and at idle with vacuum, we're around 31psi.
 

Noobz347

Stangnet Facilities Maint Tech... Er... Janitor
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#11
  • Dec 7, 2011
  • #11
I have a theory...

The connection between the TwEECer and EEC. They're NOTORIOUS for it. Most folks clean the crap out of the contactors, plug the TwEECer in, ensure it's working (i.e. plugged in correctly and making good contact on all pins) then go to great lengths to completely immobilize both the EEC and the TwEECer so that neither of them can move.

The chip that I have in the back of my EEC... I've had to pull it a time or two, clean all the contacts, reseat, and immobilize it.

Now though, I'm wise to it. I immediately recognize the symptoms when it starts acting up.
 

FastDriver

I was uncomfortably high & wearing a helmet
SN Certified Technician
Sep 5, 2001
6,086
2,687
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Vass, NC
Dec 7, 2011
#12
  • Dec 7, 2011
  • #12
Yeah, that could very well be.
 

toyman

10 Year Member
Jul 19, 2007
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Dec 8, 2011
#13
  • Dec 8, 2011
  • #13
The fuel pressure at idle is on the low side. Can you verify that the pressure is increasing under boost conditions? With a reading of 39 psi KOEO you should see a pressure of 39 psi just as you go into boost and an 1 psi increase for every psi of boost after that.
 

FastDriver

I was uncomfortably high & wearing a helmet
SN Certified Technician
Sep 5, 2001
6,086
2,687
224
Vass, NC
Dec 8, 2011
#14
  • Dec 8, 2011
  • #14
Right. Tracking on that, and fuel pressure seems fine. I guess the car is just pulling a pretty good healthy vacuum at idle.
 
F

Ford Moore

Member
Jul 29, 2009
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18
Dec 8, 2011
#15
  • Dec 8, 2011
  • #15
OK so the car is acting kinda strange. Cold idle not so good but drives ok. after only a 20-30 sec it cleans up and runs smooth. drives fine all day under 3500 rpm. The issue slow roll in say 4th 2k-3k smooth around 3500 feels like multiple cylinder misfire or flood. I am going to do some logging this weekend would like a list of sensors you guys would like to see logged. I brain dumped alot of my tweecer knowledge once the tune was good. So its going to take me some time to spin back up, but things are coming along nicely.
 

FastDriver

I was uncomfortably high & wearing a helmet
SN Certified Technician
Sep 5, 2001
6,086
2,687
224
Vass, NC
Dec 11, 2011
#16
  • Dec 11, 2011
  • #16
ttt
 
F

Ford Moore

Member
Jul 29, 2009
59
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18
Dec 19, 2011
#17
  • Dec 19, 2011
  • #17
ok so it seems fixed maybe bad gas. i ran it empty and swapped the rotor which looked fine but was dirt cheep so wth. driven several times and pulls strong. running a bit rich and rough at cold idle but after 30-45 sec it cleans up and runs smooth. kinda mystified????
 
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