calling all suspension gods

just to put in my 2c.... the road and track box is a very good setup... you can probably go without a handfull of the bushings, and the solid steering shaft is debatable... as tom said, the STB is not worth it. to make my additions to this, i would go on ahead and get the torque arm and rear springs to match, this would really finish the cars suspension (aside from maybe front coilovers, k member, and A arms) and get swaybars to match the suspension.

just a point of clarification... the HR race springs will ggive a very slight drop i was lowered 3/4", so if thats not enough for you, then you need to make the choice for looks over handeling..... personally i would not want it lower, especially with the subframes i am going to be welding in, and the eventual torque arm.

for the overall the basics needed in my opinion.... springs, dampers, CC plates, LCAs, panhard rod, SFCs.... i personally would add torque arm, superrace rear springs, front coilovers and stock geometry front A arms then finish with swaybars.

i took a break on suspension to upgrade the brakes to 13" rotors and cobra front brakes and steel lines, then going to LCAs, PHB, then TA...

steps are not bad... but good to know what order to do them in

Torinalth

as a note the RT box does not come with a torque arm, it needs to be purchased seperatly. as for the springs, if you have HR race springs, then getting the superrace for the rear would be your best option. anything aside from race on the front, and you will need to refer to MM to select the correct rate for the rear.

super sports and race are two different animals completely.... the drop is the most noticable.. the race will drop 3/4" to 1" total (mine dropped 3/4") while the supersports wil drop 1.5" or more depending. the slighhtly less noticible is the spring rate... the race springs are a much harder spring then the supersports. thus it takes more weight to compress them keeping the cra more upright under suspension shock (bumps), hard turning, and both braking and accelerating. so the supersports will be lower and move around more, the race will keep you a bit higher and flatter overall.

what this does to the geometry is best explained by someone else who has the full details to give you exact insight. however, the main thing when you drop it to much you limit suspoension travel. the top of the suspension travel does not move, but by lowering you effectivly raise the floor thus limiting how far it can go. the result is 2 fold, you have a greater chance of bottoming out your suspension that can cause damage, as well as just not being comfy.... with the travel limited and having it bottom out you will then lose proper handeling as the suspension will not be allowed to stop its self, intead it will be stopped by bottoming out, this will cause snap changes in driving (snap oversteer/understeer depending on situation).

that aside i know it has constant changes with the tie rod ends, sway bar end links, and the control arms... however i dont know the exacts... i just know too low=bad

hope this helps.

Torinalth

my .02

decent road maners and ride

MM rear control arms
subframes
h&r sport
tokico Ill or bilsteins


lowered but still handles descent but rides a bit harsh
MM rear control arms
subframes
h&r super sport
bilsteins
CC plates

great handling car just get the road and track box.


I have the middle option and like it quite a bit. I am a bit of a looks oriented person though. these car sit way to high IMO so I sacrafice a bit of ride qulity and handling for the stance I like.

I have supersprots and bilstiens an there is no noise just a bit harsher on the ride.

race drop is even from what I have heard they just don't drop much. you car would sit more like the bullit or mach 1.

the sports drop a tad less than the supersports but have quite a bit lighter spring rate up front. might be a comprimise if you want a softer ride.

race
front
750-850 1.25
rear
260-280 1

supersport
front
700-760 1.75
rear
275-300 1.6

sport
front
490-575 1.6
rear
250-285 1.5

kramer03gt said:

so i take it being if i do the race springs in the front and super race in the rear i take it the weight transfer on accelration will be alot less noticable, everything will stay in place i guess if im thinking about this correctly, but i dont want one of those lowered in front jacked up rear cars..

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I have the SuperRace in the rear. Its definately not a launching spring. I can hard launch and the car doesn't drop in the back, but the tires do stay planted (and spinning, hah)

hognutz said:

my .02

lowered but still handles descent but rides a bit harsh
MM rear control arms
subframes
h&r super sport
bilsteins
CC plates

I have the middle option and like it quite a bit. I am a bit of a looks oriented person though. these car sit way to high IMO so I sacrafice a bit of ride qulity and handling for the stance I like.

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Click my link... The only thing I don't have is the rear control arms. I have the KB (Kenny Brown) Matrix kit for subs but then I have a vert. My C/C plates are MM. I'm more an autocross than a 1/4. The ride to and from Denver rocks. I'm getting ready to put in a KB (Kenny Bell) 1.7 9psi SC.

Enjoy the ride...

Since you are new and you are about to spend some major cash, I think it would be worth your while to read through this article: Late Model Suspension Basics. This page will give you a good start on understanding the ramifications of some of the changes you are planning to make.

kramer03gt said:

so i take it being if i do the race springs in the front and super race in the rear i take it the weight transfer on accelration will be alot less noticable, everything will stay in place i guess if im thinking about this correctly, but i dont want one of those lowered in front jacked up rear cars..

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The reason we suggest a relatively higher spring rate in the rear for mustangs equipped with a torque arm is because when you install the torque arm, you remove the factory upper control arms which removes some of the binding of the rear suspension. This causes the rear wheel rate to decrease. In order to maintain the handling balance, you need to respond by increasing the rear wheel rate; this is most easily done by replacing the rear springs with stiffer units.

kramer03gt said:

and being that this is going to be a daily driver and really never taken to the track, would it make more sense to do the supersport springs instead of the race srings, but i guess i dont want to lower it to much were i hear suspension parts rubbing together, and bottoming out all the time and so i take it the race springs are going to have a harsher more corvette type ride where the super sports i going to have more of a luxurxy sports car type ride?? or am i way off??

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Here's my advice on your spring decision: None of the H&R springs are going to make your car start creating suspension noises, nor will any of the springs cause you to bottom out very easily, unless you drive your car abusively over bumps. Also, the difference in ride comfort between the race and ss springs is not as large as you are imagining. Take a look at the spring rates hognutz posted. That being said, I encourage you to go with the race springs up front. You are already getting miles ahead with your suspension, so you might as well stay consistent and choose handling over looks. That is just my opinion.

tomustang, jump in and correct me if I've had a brain fart

some of that stuff is outdated on the site

Depending on the drop you wish to achieve, do this and you won't be disappointed:

H&R (I did SS's)
Bilsteins
MM LCA
MM full length SFC
MM PHB
MM CC plates

You car with be a totally different animal. BTW, if you do in stages, this is what MM recommends:

SFC
LCA
PHB

Then,
Springs
Shocks/struts
And T/A if it fits into your equation.

BTW, and this is totally my opinion, if you are serious and are willing to spend the coin (as it seems you are), do yourself a favor and stay away from the Eibachs and KYB's. You'll thank us later.

i am impressed, you pulled out some of the top stangnet suspension guys here... including tom (who i learned a bit from) and sanman.

ok, here we go... i think you really need to see if you want to drop a load of cash on it at once, or if you want to do stages.... stages might be a better choice primarily since you are not familier with the entire suspension area it will allow you to feel what parts are doing as you progress, thus giving you some information of your own to base ideas on as well as see if you need to address certain areas vs leaving others alone... this can save cash in the long run.

to touch on a few things you brought up i want to give a slight overview of the GT suspension then get into your other questions you have posted. the GT suspension is garbage, from front to back. the reason for this is Fords idea to please as many people as possible with the mustang... and they have done well overall since they put the camaro out of production. the rear end is the main weak link, the axle goes all over the place both rotating its self under acceleration (upper arms try and prevent this) moving forward and back under acceleration (LCAs flex allowing this) and moves side to side under hard cornering (MM says it moves up to an inch either side under cornering loads... the UCAs try and limit this)

beacuse you have parts that are made for comfort (many people complain about the camaro rise quality) to keep people interested in the GT, those that like the ability to rage into a corner chasing a S2000 have a large hurdle to overcome. this is why the rear of the car has so many options: Torque arm, panhard rod, watts linkage, trilink, steeda 5 link, etc.

to fortify the rear end you need new LCAs to strengthen the lower bond of the axle to the frame, keeping it from moving forward and back. due to 3 piece urethane bushings and depending on the company a combo of urethane on one end and spherical rods on the other, and even spherical on both ends, the LCAs of todays aftermarket keep the axle strait and happy. new LCAs that DO their job make the need for the quadshocks irrelivant. so once you get the LCAs you can remove these units, as they are dead weight and creating more bind (bind is when the suspension is trying to move and having to figt its other components to do so)

the upper arms are a very very poor setup, they are at an angle kinda like this __/__\__ where the narrow end attaches to the frame. because they are off angle they are inherantly weaker in doing its main job of keeping axle rotation down (when the axle tries to move in time with with the wheels) the reason for the angle was to assist in keeping the axle from moving from side to side, as i stated earlier. the side to side movement is best fixed with the use of either a watts linkage, or a panard rod. both of these have the single use of keeping the axle from moving around back and forth.

here i am going to add a quick explanation of each PHB and watts to give you an idea of what they do. the PHB has a rod connecting the lowe parts of the shock mounts then from one of the mounts (the passenger side in the case of the MM bar)attaches at an angle from the bottom right to the top left. because of the angle bar it resists the angle from going side to side. the one down side is that from full extension to full compression of the rear suspension you can notice a slight movement in the axle back and forth... this really isnt a big deal as its controled instead of random as it is in the stock suspension.... the MM uses a larger bar then most other PHB to limit the amount of side to side movement under suspension loads.

the watts linkage has two ways of working, but i'll talk about one. there is a housing that mounts on the differential that has an axle, the axle has a vertical tie bar and uses the axle as a pivot point for rotation. the top of the vertical bar attaches to a rod that is connected to one side of the frame, while the bottom connects to the other side of the frame. this style keeps the axle from moving anywhere either side to side under any location in suspension travel. to see how one is designed go to www.evolutionmsports.com and see theirs.

back to the UCAs, the axle wind up can be fixed with either a trilink (name from evolution motorsports) or a torqu arm. either one can be used, and both are technically a trilink. each link is an arm, 2 lowers 2 uppers, quad link, 2 lowers and 1 upper is a trilink. the evo trilink is just that, a single arm attaching to the differential housing that then attaches to the molded tunnel under the back seats. i really like this method as it weighs less than a torque arm and is easier to install. the guys over at corner carvers apparently love it.

the TA has a different usage of the same theory being put into place... instead of attaching close to the axle the TA runs under the drive shaft and attaches to the subframe connectors just befind the tranny. i unfortunatl do not know the reasoning of the TA over the trilink... just thats its been a loved and proven method for just about forever. i am still deciding between the TA and trilink for my car.

the final idea on upper control arms is just replacing them with stronger ones that do not flex as much. Many people do not like this way as it does create more bind because of stiffer bushings and more overall resistance due to less flex. some go this route for cost effectiveness, others dont. my bushings are shot in my UCAs, so i am going an entirely different route.

that really about covers it for the rear. unfortunatly i dont know enough about the front to give as detailed as i did about the rear.

to give some more insight on stages.... MM does recommend exactly what Sanman said above me. and honestly you miht want to take that route... its hard to say whats best as suspension is massivly effected by how each person wants the car to handle. we can only give you insight and then you make the call. i did springs and shocks, followed by swaybars (MM recomends these to be last), but i would never give mine up after having them... now i may have to get different ones later on once i get farther in my suspension setup... but i am willing to take that hit to the wallet.

wow, i wrote too much, going to look for a mountain dew.

Torinalth

kramer03gt said:

Thanks again guys!!

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