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Calling on the wisdom again, I'm stumped

  • Thread starter Thread starter Cdaniel
  • Start date Start date Aug 30, 2004
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Cdaniel

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Nov 29, 2001
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Arizona
Aug 30, 2004
#1
  • Aug 30, 2004
  • #1
Lets go back to square one. I've had some good discussion and input from this collective wealth of knowledge on this irritating problem. I've made some changes/improvements but I still am not satisfied with the smoothness of this engines idle.

Back to the facts: 1966 289 2V, CA emissions heads, bored .030 over, Pertronix ignition, roller tip rockers, otherwise totally stock rebuild with original 2 into 1 exhaust. And the carb was "re engineered" by Pony Carbs. Transmission is a C4. I have about 500 miles on it at this point.

The problem: Idle shakes the car, not an intermittent shake, a constant one. As if it is misfiring. It seems to improve with the engine up to temp or a faster idle speed and/or more initial advance. If it's in gear with the A/C on (under load) it seems to smooth a little. Performance on the road is great, no hesitations, pulls strong, cruises smooth. Also there is one lifter that consistently ticks on startup but only briefly.

Things done to this point: Compression check, cold, no plugs in, carb wide open (good all up to 160-170 after 3 strokes). Vacuum reads a steady 18" at idle. Replaced stock rockers with roller tipped. Checked for low voltage effects on Pertronix module (none found). Checked for internal vac leaks with propane, no "smoking gun" found. Experiments with different initial timing, (Pony Carb method, no light, just adjust for max vac and smoothness, results in 40+ degrees initial advance! amazingly the thing actually runs well like this! The vac advance is detrimental here though. Duh!) (Recently re set by the light to initial 14 deg advance with carb adjustments back to 18" vac) seems more shaky under load now. And yes I've verified TDC on the balancer and even added a timing tape to measure more accurately and total advance.
Replaced 7mm plug wires with Pertronix 8mm. Added 40k volt coil.

So what am I missing here? All the vitals seem to indicate a good healthy engine. Does it need more break in time? Am I fighting a natural characteristic of a 289?
 
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Ronstang

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Aug 30, 2004
#2
  • Aug 30, 2004
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Find someone with a stock Autolite 2100 that you can bolt on and see what happens. I ran 2100s for years without any problems so I'm not sure what Pony Carbs "re-engineered" and it sounds like they might have caused more harm than good. I'm not saying this is the problem but it is an item that has been massaged so trying an unmolested one first is where my logic takes me. Good luck.
 
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Ozsum2

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Pony really hasn't changed the 2100. They reworked the 1 barrel and I believe one of the 4 barrels. But, 40 degrees initial is way, WAY to high.
 

dodgestang

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Dec 15, 2003
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Aug 30, 2004
#4
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Have you inspected the rubber on the motor mounts to insure it is not torn or pulling away from the metal of the bracket?
 

Cdaniel

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Ronstang said:
Find someone with a stock Autolite 2100 that you can bolt on and see what happens. I ran 2100s for years without any problems so I'm not sure what Pony Carbs "re-engineered" and it sounds like they might have caused more harm than good. I'm not saying this is the problem but it is an item that has been massaged so trying an unmolested one first is where my logic takes me. Good luck.
Click to expand...

Good point but at 1st I was using the original carb that I had rebuilt. And I was seeing the same issue then. I may have bagged that carb too soon but the Pony Carb does seem to atomize the fuel better.
 

Cdaniel

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#6
  • Aug 30, 2004
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dodgestang said:
Have you inspected the rubber on the motor mounts to insure it is not torn or pulling away from the metal of the bracket?
Click to expand...

I Will check, but mounts are new and I would think a bad one would shake the whole car less not more
 
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Ronstang

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#7
  • Aug 30, 2004
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Have you used a vacuum guage to set the idle mixture correctly? I had a car last week that was running rough at idle and when I put the guage on and kept richening the mixture up and the vacuum kept going up I realized that the mixture had been way off. When I was done the car was smooth as could be.
 

Cdaniel

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#8
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Ronstang said:
Have you used a vacuum guage to set the idle mixture correctly? I had a car last week that was running rough at idle and when I put the guage on and kept richening the mixture up and the vacuum kept going up I realized that the mixture had been way off. When I was done the car was smooth as could be.
Click to expand...

I've been using a tach and ear to set idle mixture. leaning it out while watching for rpm drop then just rich enough to clean it up. What do you look for on the vac gauge, Maximum vac? Needle fluctuation?
 
O

Ozsum2

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  • Aug 30, 2004
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Cdaniel said:
I've been using a tach and ear to set idle mixture. leaning it out while watching for rpm drop then just rich enough to clean it up. What do you look for on the vac gauge, Maximum vac? Needle fluctuation?
Click to expand...


Max vac, but your tach method is just as good.
 
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Ronstang

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#10
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Maximum vacuum is what you are looking for when adjusting the mixture using a vacuum gauge. The reason I am suggesting this is that I roughly checked the idle mixture of this vehicle about 4 days earlier when I had just installed the engine and I didn't notice much change in RPM when adjusting so I thought it was close but when I took more time with the gauge it showed to be way too lean.
 
R

RONM

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Aug 30, 2004
#11
  • Aug 30, 2004
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I had a similar concern with my 428 gt 500.Just like you everything under
the hood checked out and by chance after I had been working under the
dash working on my brake pedal pivot,went to start car and no start,
would fire and run but as soon as I released key die.Figured it was
something to do with my ignition switch,so pushed on wire harness behind switch car started,ran but had miss(more intermittent than yours).Could get
car to stall by pushing at certain point on harness.Make long story short
replaced ignition switch and harness connector(came with new switch)
and problem solved.Just something to check.
 

302 coupe

Founding Member
Mar 2, 2000
1,952
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36
Macon, Ga.
Aug 30, 2004
#12
  • Aug 30, 2004
  • #12
Inspect your harmonic balancer, if the keyway is worn it will slip on the crank-throwing your engine off-balance(vibration) and making your timing marks inaccurate(that would expalin the 40deg initial timing).
 
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Ozsum2

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Ozsum2 said:
Max vac, but your tach method is just as good.
Click to expand...


I'm quite sure you will find very little difference.
 
D

D.Hearne

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Aug 30, 2004
#14
  • Aug 30, 2004
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I'd go back and readjust the rockers. I'll bet they're too tight. You may need different length pushrods with them too. You motor should idle smooth as silk.
 
R

Ronstang

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#15
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I agree with D. Hearne that the rockers being too tight is one possibility to your rough idle problem....plus it is easy to fix if they are adjustable rockers and since they are 66 heads you should be OK.

You can adjust them while the engine is running. If you have an extra set of old valve covers you can cut out a slot on top for access to the nuts, or you can use those clip on oil deflectors if you can find them. Loosen each rocker up till it starts ticking and then tighten slowly until the ticking just stops and then go 1/2 - 3/4 turn.
 

Cdaniel

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  • Aug 30, 2004
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Ronstang said:
I agree with D. Hearne that the rockers being too tight is one possibility to your rough idle problem....plus it is easy to fix if they are adjustable rockers and since they are 66 heads you should be OK.

You can adjust them while the engine is running. If you have an extra set of old valve covers you can cut out a slot on top for access to the nuts, or you can use those clip on oil deflectors if you can find them. Loosen each rocker up till it starts ticking and then tighten slowly until the ticking just stops and then go 1/2 - 3/4 turn.
Click to expand...

Great minds think alike! The roughness I describe is very similar to a what you get when a valve is too tight. But They were adjusted per method you describe above. adjustedI even went to the bone yard for an old set of covers to cut up.

Considering the initial timing was way advanced when I did it, do you think I should do it again?
 

Cdaniel

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D.Hearne said:
I'd go back and readjust the rockers. I'll bet they're too tight. You may need different length pushrods with them too. You motor should idle smooth as silk.
Click to expand...

The push rods are stock and the rockers are stock replacement 1.6 ratio. I think that should be all right.
 
R

Ronstang

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#18
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The ignition timing will have no affect on the valve adjustmen Cdaniel so that is probably alright but you never know so if you just have nothing else to check it might be worth the hour it takes to confirm the setting. It's your call because we are not there. Have you sprayed carb cleaner around the carb and intake gaskets to make sure you don't have a vacuum leak?
 
V

VictorII

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Jun 19, 2004
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Cotati, CA
Aug 30, 2004
#19
  • Aug 30, 2004
  • #19
Are you sure your plug wires are installed correctly? I, and many who are way more experienced than me, have made this mistake, especially on 7 and 8. It is worth checking.
 

2nd Mustang

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Aug 30, 2004
#20
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VictorII said:
Are you sure your plug wires are installed correctly? I, and many who are way more experienced than me, have made this mistake, especially on 7 and 8. It is worth checking.
Click to expand...


This won't help your problem, but will give you a good laugh. I once mixed up the coil wire and a plug wire and couldn't figure out why my car wouldn't start......talk about feeling stupid!
 
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