Cam Gurus here...... Big Misunderstanding I Hope

69Rcode_Mach1

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Okay there has been a lot of talk lately about retrofitting cams into your car. I would like to retrofit a hydraulic roller cam, and was told to go with a vertical link style lifter. Now I have looked into it a great deal, and will be getting a custom ground cam from Lunati. Now here is the problem, I called Crower cams to figure out what kind window we have to have the base circle cut with. The guy on the phone then stated that they don't make a vertical link roller for ford and that it is a chevy lifter pictured, and that it won't work for a retrofit. Now read the description on the summit link I provide. I called up summits tech line, and he read me the description out of the book from crower, and it is the exact same. Now given the description it should work, now here is the kicker, summit won't guarantee it will work on a 351 because crower only has it listed under a 302. I can't seem to figure out why it would make a difference between the two. The lifter valley is the exact same except for the 351's being a little wider, 302's and 351's can share cams and flat tappet lifters. Why wouldn't a roller lifter work? The only thing I could see there being a difference would be the length in pushrods which can easily be remedied? I want to get this part because I don't want to do a spider and dog bones assembly, and the other options out there from ford and crane cams cost $500 FOR LIFTERS!!!!!!!Any ideas?

Link: http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=partdetail.asp&part=CRO-66335-16&FROM=MG

 

69Rcode_Mach1

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Come on 302 coupe this question is especially for you.

 

rbohm

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first you can swap cams between the 351w and the 302, you just have to use the correct firing order. lifters are also the same between the two engines. the lifter valley between the 351w and the 302 are the same width at the bottom of the valley, its the top of the valley where they are different due to deck height. in fact the dog bones and the spider are the same between the engines. and yes pushrods are different in length, and most every cam company has the correct pushrods, or can make them if need be. link bar lifters are expensive, but are required if you dont want to use the factory settup.

 

69Rcode_Mach1

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Yeah that is the problem. I want to buy them and see what happens. I am just worried that they don't work and I am set back $210. I know that the 302-351 can interchange. The part that worries me is the guy saying that they don't make them for ford, and that they are for roller blocks. Even though their description states that they work on a 1968 302 and that it is not a roller block. Their description even says it retrofits into older blocks. What the hell?

 

HistoricMustang

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69Rcode_Mach1 said:

Come on 302 coupe this question is especially for you.

Click to expand...

I agree, 302 Coupe is the man.......................plus, we have had lunch together when he was broke and going to school to learn all this good stuff to be passed on to us guys with brain farts!

HistoricMustang
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302 coupe

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I think that the guy from crower might be mixed up. Call him back with the specs in hand, and ask him exactly why they won't work. Doesn't matter if its 'chevy' lifter if they are practically the same. For other linked hydro rollers, Crane 36532-16 for $426 at summit, and FRPP FMS-M-6500-S58 for $420. But still, the crower 66335-16 is listed at $210, and listed as fitting 68-86 302 only. I don't know what is going there. Check out lunati #72411N, its a solid roller set for $330 that fits all windsors, clevelands, modifieds, and 429/460's. Do they all really use the same lifters? Who knows, not me. Crane has set of mech rollers, #44518-16 for $357 at summit, and comp mech rollers #838-16 for $320. Crowers mech rollers, #66215-16 go for $473. I think either crower or summit has some info mixed up. If they can't figure it out, go with the crane or FRPP hyd rollers. If it works on a 302, it will work on a 351, I don't care who you are, lol.

 

302 coupe

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HistoricMustang said:

I agree, 302 Coupe is the man.......................plus, we have had lunch together when he was broke and going to school to learn all this good stuff to be passed on to us guys with brain farts!

Click to expand...

Buenos noches Henry! Hows the engine swap going for your wifes car? smooth sailing I presume. You should see the truck I just got done restoring, I'll have to take some pics and send you. Should look sharp pulling the mustang to the track.

 

HistoricMustang

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302 coupe said:

Buenos noches Henry! Hows the engine swap going for your wifes car? smooth sailing I presume. You should see the truck I just got done restoring, I'll have to take some pics and send you. Should look sharp pulling the mustang to the track.

Click to expand...

That is what I am talking about.

Normal stuff with the engine pull. Timing chain cover bolt would not come out - had to be drilled. The motor had a burnt valve - which is what I suspected............dang balancer did not want to come off - but it did with a big hammer.........everything greasy and dirty.........oil plug threads just about stripped..........damn oil looks like india ink after only 500 miles.........dang new motor stand wants to be a prick and not turn 360 degrees...........and the worst thing..........beer got hot while I was fooling with all the above. Had a ton of fun with the four letter cuss words.

Send the pics...............I miss my '69 with the 460 and nitros.

HistoricMustang
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S

steel1212

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Is crower the only one that sells hydro rollers with the bar for a 302?

 

69Rcode_Mach1

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No but for $210 you can't go wrong. I think I will buy them and see if they show up as described. I will tell them I am running it in a 302 because there is no difference. If they are not vertical link roller lifters that can't be retrofitted, I will send them back. Summit will understand. I know for a fact it is not summit's mistake. They have their info straight from crower cams. I checked with a Ford tech guy on the phone and he agreed with me. He didn't know why there would be any difference. He also read the exact same description and part number straight from crower's book. Make sense?

 

rbohm

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if the lifters fit the chevy, likely they will not fit the ford, unless chevy changed their lifter design in the past 15 years. chevy uses a smaller diameter lifter body than ford does. ford uses a 1" diameter lifter body and chevy uses like .840".

 

302 coupe

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ford lifters are sized at .874, and .875, according to aftermarket lifter mfg specs. Maybe the crowers are .842?

69Rcode_mach1, how about measuring the diameter of your old lifters. My curiousity is peaked by all of this. The only swap I've ever done has been with the comp solid 838-16's in a 302, they dropped right in and I had no problems. FYI, they were installed on a hyd roller cam and work great, no issues with lash adjustment or anything.

Both the comp and crane solid rollers are .874 diameter. And I just found evidence to confirm with rbohm that chevy lifters are .842.

 

302 coupe

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according to crowers website, limited info, but it looks like the 66335-16 is a stock replacement for late model roller blocks. http://www.crower.com/cgi-bin/detail.cgi?prod_id=66335-16&go.x=16&go.y=8 That would explain the price being so much lower than the others....something weird going on here.

 

S

steel1212

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Somebody needs to figure this one out as I plan on doing this when I upgrade my heads!

 

rbohm

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302 coupe said:

ford lifters are sized at .874, and .875, according to aftermarket lifter mfg specs.

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then it must be that nascar allows all manufacturers to run 1" lifter bores in their race motors to prevent one manufacturer an advantage over another. but i knew the ford lifters were larger than the chevy ones.

 

69Rcode_Mach1

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Yes I don't understand it that is what gets me all confused too. I will get a lifter out and measure it to see what it's size is.

 

D

D.Hearne

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rbohm said:

then it must be that nascar allows all manufacturers to run 1" lifter bores in their race motors to prevent one manufacturer an advantage over another. but i knew the ford lifters were larger than the chevy ones.

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The Mopar's were/are the motors with 1" lifters. And ditto on Ford lifters being larger diameter than Chevy's. A larger diameter lifter ( flat tappet) gave an advantage in opening the valve sooner with the same cam profile.