I just switched to a TFS stage 1 cam. Finally got it back together, and fired it up. It was running a little rough, so I figured I needed to adjust timing. I shut it off and unplugged the spout, and tried to start it again. It will just turn over, but now won't start. I tried to restab the distributor, no luck. I am getting fuel, as I can smell it and the fuel pressure is at 38psi. I beleive I am not getting spark. Is there any way to check? Any suggestions would be great.
Cam swap, fired once, now won't start
- Thread starter 9 Deuce GT
- Start date
stang22
Active Member
Are you getting fire from the coil? Make sure you have 12 volts passing through the coil with the key on. With the key on, you should have 12 volts on both wires going to the coil. Double check all of your grounds also.
Tim
Tim
stang22
Active Member
There are a couple of ways. The easiest would be to put an old spark on the coil wire and turn it over and see if you see it fire. Another would be to mark the distrubutor, loosen it, turn the key on and rotate the dizzy back and forth and see if you have spark (close to a ground of with an old plug). There are several ways to do it, if you have another person it is easier.
Tim
Tim
Cranks OK, but No Start Checklist for Fuel Injected Mustangs
1.) Remove push on connector from starter solenoid and turn ignition switch on. Place car in neutral or Park. Remove coil wire from distributor & and hold 3/8” away from engine block. Jumper the screw to the big bolt on the starter solenoid that has the battery wire connected to it. You should get a nice fat blue spark.
Most of the items are electrical in nature, so a test light, or even better, a voltmeter, is helpful to be sure they have power to them.
No spark, possible failed items in order of their probability:
A.) MSD or Crane ignition box if so equipped
B.) Coil
C.) TFI module
D.) PIP sensor in distributor
E.) ECC relay next to computer - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires
F.) Fuse links in wiring harness - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires. All the fuse links live in a bundle up near the starter solenoid.
G.) Ignition switch - look for 12 volts at the ignition coil red/lt green wire.
H.) Computer
See the following links for wiring diagrams...
http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiB..._us/0900823d/80/16/71/3c/0900823d8016713c.jsp for 79-88 model cars
http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiB..._us/0900823d/80/19/59/5a/0900823d8019595a.jsp for 89-93 model cars
http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiB..._us/0900823d/80/1d/db/3c/0900823d801ddb3c.jsp for 94-98 model cars
2.) Spark at coil wire, pull #1 plug wire off at the spark plug and check to see spark. No spark, possible failed items in order of their probability:
A.) Moisture inside distributor – remove cap, dry off & spray with WD40
B.) Distributor cap
C.) Rotor
D.) Spark Plug wires
E.) Coil weak or intermittent - you should see 3/8" fat blue spark with a good coil
3.) Spark at spark plug, but no start.
Next, get a can of starting fluid (ether) from your local auto parts store: costs a $1.30 or so. Then pull the air duct off at the throttle body elbow, open the throttle, and spray the ether in it. Reconnect the air duct and try to start the car. Do not try to start the car without reconnecting the air duct.
Two reasons:
1.) If it backfires, the chance for a serious fire is increased.
2.) On Mass Air cars, the computer needs to measure the MAF flow once the engine starts.
If it starts then, you have a fuel management issue. Continue the checklist with emphasis of fuel related items that follow. If it doesn’t, then it is a computer or timing issue: see Step 4.
Clue – listen for the fuel pump to prime when you first turn the ignition switch on. It should run for 5-20 seconds and shut off. To trick the fuel pump into running, find the ECC test connector and jump the connector in the lower RH corner to ground. See http://www.mustangworks.com/article...c-iv_codes.html for a description of the test connector. If the relay & inertia switch are OK, you will have power to the pump. Check fuel pressure – remove the cap from the schrader valve behind the alternator and depress the core. Fuel should squirt out, catch it in a rag. Beware of fire hazard when you do this. In pinch you can use a tire pressure gauge to measure the fuel pressure. It may not be completely accurate, but you will have some clue as to how much pressure you have.
No fuel pressure, possible failed items in order of their probability:
A.) Tripped inertia switch – Coupe & hatch cars hide it under the plastic trim covering the driver's side taillight. Use the voltmeter or test light to make sure you have power to both sides of the switch
B.) Fuel pump power relay – located under the driver’s seat in most stangs built before 92. On 92 and later model cars it is located below the Mass Air Flow meter. Look for 12 volts at the Pink/Black wire on the fuel pump relay.
C.) Clogged fuel filter
D.) Failed fuel pump
E.) Blown fuse link in wiring harness. Look for 12 volts at the Orange/Lt Blue wire on the fuel pump relay. The fuse links live in the wiring harness near the starter solenoid.
F.) Fuel pressure regulator failed. Remove vacuum line from regulator and inspect for fuel escaping while pump is running.
Fuel pressure OK, the injectors are not firing.
A.) A Noid light available from Autozone, is one way to test the injector wiring.
B.) I like to use an old injector with compressed air applied to the injector where the fuel rail would normally connect. I hook the whole thing up, apply compressed air to the injector and stick it in a paper cup of soapy water. When the engine cranks with the ignition switch on, if the injector fires, it makes bubbles. Cheap if you have the stuff laying around, and works good too.
a.) Pull an injector wire connector off and look for 12 volts on the red wire when the ignition switch is on.
b.) No power, then look for problems with the 10 pin connecter (salt & pepper shakers at the rear of the upper manifold).
c.) No power and the 10 pin connections are good: look for broken wiring between the orange/black wire on the ECC relay and the red wire for the 10 pin connectors.
4.) Spark & fuel pressure OK.
A.) Failed IAB (no airflow to start engine). Press the throttle ¼ way down and try to start the car.
B.) Failed computer (not very likely)
C.) Engine ignition or cam timing off: only likely if the engine has been worked on recently).
D.) Firing order off: HO & 351 use a different firing order from the non HO engines.
HO & 351W 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8
Non HO 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
E.) No start when hot - Press the throttle to the floor & try starting it if you get this far. If it starts, replace the ECT.
1.) Remove push on connector from starter solenoid and turn ignition switch on. Place car in neutral or Park. Remove coil wire from distributor & and hold 3/8” away from engine block. Jumper the screw to the big bolt on the starter solenoid that has the battery wire connected to it. You should get a nice fat blue spark.
Most of the items are electrical in nature, so a test light, or even better, a voltmeter, is helpful to be sure they have power to them.
No spark, possible failed items in order of their probability:
A.) MSD or Crane ignition box if so equipped
B.) Coil
C.) TFI module
D.) PIP sensor in distributor
E.) ECC relay next to computer - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires
F.) Fuse links in wiring harness - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires. All the fuse links live in a bundle up near the starter solenoid.
G.) Ignition switch - look for 12 volts at the ignition coil red/lt green wire.
H.) Computer
See the following links for wiring diagrams...
http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiB..._us/0900823d/80/16/71/3c/0900823d8016713c.jsp for 79-88 model cars
http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiB..._us/0900823d/80/19/59/5a/0900823d8019595a.jsp for 89-93 model cars
http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiB..._us/0900823d/80/1d/db/3c/0900823d801ddb3c.jsp for 94-98 model cars
2.) Spark at coil wire, pull #1 plug wire off at the spark plug and check to see spark. No spark, possible failed items in order of their probability:
A.) Moisture inside distributor – remove cap, dry off & spray with WD40
B.) Distributor cap
C.) Rotor
D.) Spark Plug wires
E.) Coil weak or intermittent - you should see 3/8" fat blue spark with a good coil
3.) Spark at spark plug, but no start.
Next, get a can of starting fluid (ether) from your local auto parts store: costs a $1.30 or so. Then pull the air duct off at the throttle body elbow, open the throttle, and spray the ether in it. Reconnect the air duct and try to start the car. Do not try to start the car without reconnecting the air duct.
Two reasons:
1.) If it backfires, the chance for a serious fire is increased.
2.) On Mass Air cars, the computer needs to measure the MAF flow once the engine starts.
If it starts then, you have a fuel management issue. Continue the checklist with emphasis of fuel related items that follow. If it doesn’t, then it is a computer or timing issue: see Step 4.
Clue – listen for the fuel pump to prime when you first turn the ignition switch on. It should run for 5-20 seconds and shut off. To trick the fuel pump into running, find the ECC test connector and jump the connector in the lower RH corner to ground. See http://www.mustangworks.com/article...c-iv_codes.html for a description of the test connector. If the relay & inertia switch are OK, you will have power to the pump. Check fuel pressure – remove the cap from the schrader valve behind the alternator and depress the core. Fuel should squirt out, catch it in a rag. Beware of fire hazard when you do this. In pinch you can use a tire pressure gauge to measure the fuel pressure. It may not be completely accurate, but you will have some clue as to how much pressure you have.
No fuel pressure, possible failed items in order of their probability:
A.) Tripped inertia switch – Coupe & hatch cars hide it under the plastic trim covering the driver's side taillight. Use the voltmeter or test light to make sure you have power to both sides of the switch
B.) Fuel pump power relay – located under the driver’s seat in most stangs built before 92. On 92 and later model cars it is located below the Mass Air Flow meter. Look for 12 volts at the Pink/Black wire on the fuel pump relay.
C.) Clogged fuel filter
D.) Failed fuel pump
E.) Blown fuse link in wiring harness. Look for 12 volts at the Orange/Lt Blue wire on the fuel pump relay. The fuse links live in the wiring harness near the starter solenoid.
F.) Fuel pressure regulator failed. Remove vacuum line from regulator and inspect for fuel escaping while pump is running.
Fuel pressure OK, the injectors are not firing.
A.) A Noid light available from Autozone, is one way to test the injector wiring.
B.) I like to use an old injector with compressed air applied to the injector where the fuel rail would normally connect. I hook the whole thing up, apply compressed air to the injector and stick it in a paper cup of soapy water. When the engine cranks with the ignition switch on, if the injector fires, it makes bubbles. Cheap if you have the stuff laying around, and works good too.
a.) Pull an injector wire connector off and look for 12 volts on the red wire when the ignition switch is on.
b.) No power, then look for problems with the 10 pin connecter (salt & pepper shakers at the rear of the upper manifold).
c.) No power and the 10 pin connections are good: look for broken wiring between the orange/black wire on the ECC relay and the red wire for the 10 pin connectors.
4.) Spark & fuel pressure OK.
A.) Failed IAB (no airflow to start engine). Press the throttle ¼ way down and try to start the car.
B.) Failed computer (not very likely)
C.) Engine ignition or cam timing off: only likely if the engine has been worked on recently).
D.) Firing order off: HO & 351 use a different firing order from the non HO engines.
HO & 351W 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8
Non HO 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
E.) No start when hot - Press the throttle to the floor & try starting it if you get this far. If it starts, replace the ECT.
Alright. I just about give up. I tried today, and I got it to start 3 times out of the 50 or so attempts. So it's not the fact that it will start when the spout is in and not when it's out. It seems like a timing issue because of the way it sounds when it's running. I have to give it gas for it to start. You have to pump it, and keep cranking it over. Then, I get serious idle surge, and unless you hold down the gas pedal some, it surges until it dies. I have tried to restab the dist. at least 15 times, with the same result every time. I checked spark at the coil and #1 spark plug wire, all was good there. I am completly stumped. Please help!
ECU5.0
Banned
was the cam installed correctly? it might be just a stupid question...but i guess if the valves were opening wrong it wouldnt start...and would run like hell if it did start
edit: im not trying to diss your mechanical skills...im just tryin to help with all the dumb stuff that could have happened because thats what always slows me down
edit: im not trying to diss your mechanical skills...im just tryin to help with all the dumb stuff that could have happened because thats what always slows me down
I'm pretty sure it's in right. Let me give a little more info, as I probably left a few things out. I swapped the cams about two months ago. I got everything back together, and took it for a spin. I noticed the rockers were really noisy, (not adjusted correctly, I had a lot of play in the pushrod to rocker arm area), and I had a lower intake gasket leak. I tore it back down. I contacted Ford Racing, and the tech told me that a little preload on the lifters is okay and it won't hurt anything. I had to change the shims stack I was using from a stack of .090 to .080. on the intakes. For some reason all but three rocker needed this many shims to get the right preload. The others needed a stack of .075. With that done, I completed everything else. I jumped in the seat, and fired it up. It strated on the first try, like it did previously after the cam swap, but the timing was off so I shut it off to pull the spout. When I tried to restart with the spout out, it would not start, it just cranked over. I put the spout back in, and still nothing. I tried to restab the dist., still nothing. Today, after the help from you guys here, I tried to restab it again a few different times. I got it to start twice on seperate occasions, but it ran like crap. I also needed to pump the gas for it to start. After the idle surge killed it, I tried to start it right after, but got nothing. I am lost. I have tried everything, and I get no results. Every logical thing does not seem to work. After reading jrichker's post, I remeber oil getting sucked into the intake and cylinder ports from what I guess is the lack of oil baffle due to my roller rockers. I will try to switch that with the one from my stock TB tomarrow. Any help is appreciated.
maybe the valves aren't even opening, could the valvetrain possibly be off? It also sounds like it could just be running rich, but that doesnt really make much sense based on your combo. You should try pulling the plugs, maybe they will tell you something. Also, maybe try a compression check, that will help you determine wether or not your valves are opening/closing correctly. Good luck.
ExplodingGopher
New Member
CHECK FOR VACCUUM LEAKS.......
When i had the 5.0, and changed the cam to the B-303, i started it up, it sounded like a top fuel dragster at idle, it was waaaaaaay too rich. It turned out the front and rear lower intake gaskets had slipped while putting on the manifold and made a huge vaccuum leak. We checked this by sprayin some silicon spray near the front and back of the engine while it was running, the engine sucked it in at the front and read and idled good for about 2 seconds then back to crap, next we did the same thing with a water mist, sucked it in the front and back and it bogged down, we then took off the manifold and siliconed the crap out of them and let them tack up before reinstalling the manifold, it cured the problem....until the lifter collapsed a year later....DOH!..
When i had the 5.0, and changed the cam to the B-303, i started it up, it sounded like a top fuel dragster at idle, it was waaaaaaay too rich. It turned out the front and rear lower intake gaskets had slipped while putting on the manifold and made a huge vaccuum leak. We checked this by sprayin some silicon spray near the front and back of the engine while it was running, the engine sucked it in at the front and read and idled good for about 2 seconds then back to crap, next we did the same thing with a water mist, sucked it in the front and back and it bogged down, we then took off the manifold and siliconed the crap out of them and let them tack up before reinstalling the manifold, it cured the problem....until the lifter collapsed a year later....DOH!..
stang22
Active Member
When it starts, does it sounds like it is running on all 8 cylinders? Firing order is CCW, just to throw that out there. 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8
I'm totally confused. I tried today to clean the IAB. The battery was disconnetcted, so after I cleaned the valve, I connected the battery, and she fired up perfect. I shut it off and restarted it 4-5 times back to back. It started up perfectly every time. So I grabbed the timing light, and set the timing. It wasn't really that far off. I set it to 12 degrees with the spout out. I let it idle for a little bit, and then I started to get a major idle surge. Here we go again. It died, so I tried to start it. Nothing. I put the pedal to the floor, it will start that way but won't idle. I tried ceaning the IAB again, same thing. I even replaced it with the IAB from my stock TB. I am getting the same problem over and over again. What I'm thinking is that when I disconnect the battery, it is clearing the codes. Then when I start it back up again, it will run fine until the codes reenter the computer. Does this sound right? So I believe this is no longer a timing issue. What else could it be? I will get a scanner and try checking codes tomarrow. Should I check codes with the car running, not running, or both?
Also, when it ran after the intial start up today, it sounded great, no vavle ticking or anything. THis leads me to believe that the rockers are adjusted correctly. Any ideas?
Also, when it ran after the intial start up today, it sounded great, no vavle ticking or anything. THis leads me to believe that the rockers are adjusted correctly. Any ideas?
srothfuss
Last night I stabbed the same guy 7 times in a row
Spend 5 cents on a paper clip & use the money you were going to spend on the code scanner for some other goodies...
Dump the codes and see what the computer says is wrong…
Here's the link to dump the computer codes with only a jumper wire or paper clip and the check engine light, or test light or voltmeter. I’ve used it for years, and it works great.
See http://www.troublecodes.net/Ford/
OR
See http://www.mustangworks.com/articles/electronics/eec-iv_codes.html
IF your car is an 86-88 stang, you'll have to use the test lamp or voltmeter method. There is no functional check engine light on the 86-88's except possibly the Cali Mass Air cars.
Codes have different answers if the engine is running from the answers that it has when the engine isn't running. It helps a lot to know if you had the engine running when you ran the test.
Trouble codes are either 2 digit or 3 digit, there are no cars that use both 2 digit codes and 3 digit codes.
For those who are intimidated by all the wires & connections, see http://www.actron.com/product_detail.php?pid=16153 for what a typical hand scanner looks like. Normal retail price is about $30 or so at AutoZone or Walmart.
Or for a nicer scanner see http://www.midwayautosupply.com/detailedproductdescription.asp?3829 – It has a 3 digit LCD display so that you don’t have to count flashes or beeps.. Cost is $33.
Dump the codes and see what the computer says is wrong…
Here's the link to dump the computer codes with only a jumper wire or paper clip and the check engine light, or test light or voltmeter. I’ve used it for years, and it works great.
See http://www.troublecodes.net/Ford/
OR
See http://www.mustangworks.com/articles/electronics/eec-iv_codes.html
IF your car is an 86-88 stang, you'll have to use the test lamp or voltmeter method. There is no functional check engine light on the 86-88's except possibly the Cali Mass Air cars.
Codes have different answers if the engine is running from the answers that it has when the engine isn't running. It helps a lot to know if you had the engine running when you ran the test.
Trouble codes are either 2 digit or 3 digit, there are no cars that use both 2 digit codes and 3 digit codes.
For those who are intimidated by all the wires & connections, see http://www.actron.com/product_detail.php?pid=16153 for what a typical hand scanner looks like. Normal retail price is about $30 or so at AutoZone or Walmart.
Or for a nicer scanner see http://www.midwayautosupply.com/detailedproductdescription.asp?3829 – It has a 3 digit LCD display so that you don’t have to count flashes or beeps.. Cost is $33.
Okay, I think I am getting some where. Today I drove the car. Ran like crap. Stalls at every stop or down shift when the clutch is pressed. I drove it for approx. 10 min. hoping the computer needed to relearn everything. Didn't seem to help. Maybe it needs more time. Then I checked codes. In KOEO mode, I got code 96. In KOER, I got 42 and 92. That is rich condition, an easy fix I think by dropping fuel pres. The code 96 is throwing me. It is either: Fuel pump monitor circuit shows no power - Power / Fuel Pump Circuits, (which from the link jrichker gave me is for KOEO), or: AIR Bypass (AIRB) not working - Air Injection, or: Service 87 code first if present) Fuel pump relay or battery power feed was open - Power / Fuel Pump Circuits
in KOER mode. WHat do I check first? If the fuel pump monitor circuits show no power, would I be recieving any fuel? I deff. have fuel. Any ideas?
in KOER mode. WHat do I check first? If the fuel pump monitor circuits show no power, would I be recieving any fuel? I deff. have fuel. Any ideas?
Code 96 – KOEO- Fuel pump monitor circuit shows no power - Fuel pump relay or battery power feed was open - Power / Fuel Pump Circuits. The fuel pump lost power at some time while the ignition switch was in the run position.
Look for a failing fuel pump relay, bad connections or broken wiring. The fuel pump relay is located under the Mass Air Meter on Fox bodied stangs built after 91. On earlier model cars is under the passenger seat. On Mass Air Conversions, the signal lead that tells the computer that the fuel pump has power may not have been wired correctly. See http://www.stangnet.com/tech/maf/massairconversion.html
To help troubleshoot the 96 code , follow this link for a wiring diagram for 87-90 models http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif
for 91-93 models see http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/gif/large/0900823d80195960.gif
Look for power at the fuel pump - the fuel pump has a connector at the rear of the car with a pink/black wire and a black wire that goes to the fuel pump. The pink/black wire should be hot when the test connector is jumpered to the test position. . To trick the fuel pump into running, find the ECC test connector and jump the connector in the lower RH corner to ground. http://www.mustangworks.com/articles/electronics/eec-iv_codes.html for a description of the test connector. it. No voltage when jumpered, check the fuel pump relay and fuse links.
86-90 Models:
Using the diagram, check the red/black wire from the fuel pump relay: you should see 12 volts or so. If not, check the inertia switch: on a hatch it is on the drivers side by the taillight. Look for a black rubber plug that pops out: if you don't find it, then loosen up the plastic trim. Check for voltage on both sides of the switch. If there is voltage on both sides, then check the Pink/black wire on the fuel pump relay: it is the power feed to the fuel pump. Good voltage there, then the fuel pump is the likely culprit since it is getting power. No voltage there, check the Orange/Lt blue wire, it is the power feed to the fuel pump relay & has a fuse link in it. Good voltage there & at the Pink/black wire, swap the relay.
91-93 Models:
Using the diagram, check the dark green/yellow wire from the fuel pump relay: you should see 12 volts or so. If not the relay has failed or is intermittent. Check the inertia switch: on a hatch it is on the drivers side by the taillight. Look for a black rubber plug that pops out: if you don't find it, then loosen up the plastic trim. Check for voltage on both sides of the switch. If there is voltage on both sides, then check the Pink/black wire on the fuel pump relay: it is the power feed to the fuel pump. Good voltage there, then the fuel pump is the likely culprit since it is getting power. No voltage there, check the Pink/black wire, it is the power feed to the fuel pump relay & has a fuse link in it. Good voltage there & at the dark green/yellow wire, swap the relay.
Look for a failing fuel pump relay, bad connections or broken wiring. The fuel pump relay is located under the Mass Air Meter on Fox bodied stangs built after 91. On earlier model cars is under the passenger seat. On Mass Air Conversions, the signal lead that tells the computer that the fuel pump has power may not have been wired correctly. See http://www.stangnet.com/tech/maf/massairconversion.html
To help troubleshoot the 96 code , follow this link for a wiring diagram for 87-90 models http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif
for 91-93 models see http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/gif/large/0900823d80195960.gif
Look for power at the fuel pump - the fuel pump has a connector at the rear of the car with a pink/black wire and a black wire that goes to the fuel pump. The pink/black wire should be hot when the test connector is jumpered to the test position. . To trick the fuel pump into running, find the ECC test connector and jump the connector in the lower RH corner to ground. http://www.mustangworks.com/articles/electronics/eec-iv_codes.html for a description of the test connector. it. No voltage when jumpered, check the fuel pump relay and fuse links.
86-90 Models:
Using the diagram, check the red/black wire from the fuel pump relay: you should see 12 volts or so. If not, check the inertia switch: on a hatch it is on the drivers side by the taillight. Look for a black rubber plug that pops out: if you don't find it, then loosen up the plastic trim. Check for voltage on both sides of the switch. If there is voltage on both sides, then check the Pink/black wire on the fuel pump relay: it is the power feed to the fuel pump. Good voltage there, then the fuel pump is the likely culprit since it is getting power. No voltage there, check the Orange/Lt blue wire, it is the power feed to the fuel pump relay & has a fuse link in it. Good voltage there & at the Pink/black wire, swap the relay.
91-93 Models:
Using the diagram, check the dark green/yellow wire from the fuel pump relay: you should see 12 volts or so. If not the relay has failed or is intermittent. Check the inertia switch: on a hatch it is on the drivers side by the taillight. Look for a black rubber plug that pops out: if you don't find it, then loosen up the plastic trim. Check for voltage on both sides of the switch. If there is voltage on both sides, then check the Pink/black wire on the fuel pump relay: it is the power feed to the fuel pump. Good voltage there, then the fuel pump is the likely culprit since it is getting power. No voltage there, check the Pink/black wire, it is the power feed to the fuel pump relay & has a fuse link in it. Good voltage there & at the dark green/yellow wire, swap the relay.
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