CAN'T GET ANY GEARS

[Spanish Dave]

Hope you can help .... I have just rebuilt the engine on my 65 fastback (289) together with a new flywheel and all new clutch parts, now I am not able to select any gears even with the clutch at full adjustment. The clutch arm is moving ok and the thing is the car will start and run with second or third gear selected and clutch depressed .... but it makes a sort of dragging noise in the gearbox. When I then let the clutch in, the car stalls at about half pedal as if the clutch is staring to bite. A pal of mine suggested that the disc may be in the wrong way round, but I checked when the original one came out and it would only go in one way as it would snag the flywheel bolts if it was wrong. The only difference is that the old clutch was a spring type cover plate and the new one is a diaphragm type.
Any suggestions?? or is it time to pull the engine again to check?? How can I tell if the disc is in the correct way round if it is a different type and look to the one that came out??

 

[ashford]

acting like the tranny is locked up? if so you can be meshing 2 gears at the same time, check linkage adj or remove bothrods and select neutral for both arms and see what happens.

 

[mp67]

Can you run it through the gears with the car shut off ? If the tranny was working fine before, and now its not, you have to look at what work was done. Tranny itself should not be the problem. Maybe you got the wrong pressure plate. Usually the pressure plate won't bolt up if you have the clutch in wrong. Maybe linkage is hooked up incorrect. Did you get a heavy duty or high performance clutch and pressure plate setup? That could possibly change the size adjustment rod you need.

 

[Spanish Dave]

Yes the gears will run through fine with the engine off. The gearbox was OK before I did the engine (4 speed top loader with 6 bolt bell housing and Hurst shifter). The cltch set was a new one ... just a standard duty one I assume .. from NPD & cheap. I haven't really disturbed anything on the g/box. I'm confident that the car could be driven by starting it in gear, there is no problem about the clutch biting when released ... just when you take it out of gear (it comes out quite easily) you can't select another!
I don't know whether to buy another clutch set and try that ... the only thing is it will probably take around 2 weeks to get here and then may give the same problem. If I pull the engine again and check the clutch, I am convinced it will look OK.

 

[pabear89]

Last time I had that happen it was the clutch plate hanging up on the inside of the pressure plate[clutch cover] .
the spot was where the clutch plate springs in the center would catch after the cover was installed, the outter spring plate on the clutch was not machined to the correct size and when the cover was bolted on it would not totally release when petal was pressed.

Found that after replacing trans twice.

PB

 

[65shlbycln]

Wow! A mustang owner in Spain! How awesome is that?!

My father's side is Portuguese, and whenever i go to Portugal, i can't help but think how awesome it would be to have a mustang there.

It must be nice to pull up to a Seat, and throw a nice rev at them.

Do some people know what kind of car you drive?

 

[Spanish Dave]

hi there 65shlbycln

Do some people know what kind of car you drive?

Not a Mustang at the moment

I have had the car over here for nearly a year now and have only driven it about 20 miles or so. The rest of the time I have been restoring it. ... Full engine rebuild .. 289 with 351w heads, flat top pistons, comp cams 280h cam, comp cams roller tipped rockers, weiand stealth intake with 650 holley and try-y headers to a h-pipe twin exhaust .... it sounds awsome now. I have also replaced springs front and back, upper and lower arms (shelby drop) shocks, brakes etc. 17 inch Torquethrust IIs. All the interior has been done seats, dash, headliner etc. etc. My next job is the steering and then it should be useable

BTW for the information of others a Seat is a make of car in Spain ... we do not try and race against armchairs here

 

[65shlbycln]

BTW for the information of others a Seat is a make of car in Spain ... we do not try and race against armchairs here

Hah yeah! Do you have any pics of your car?

 

[Spanish Dave]

I have attached a pic ... but it's not too good.

 

[65shlbycln]

I have attached a pic ... but it's not too good.

Very nice! Looks good with the euro plate.

What color is that? Are the stripes white?

 

[Jonstantine]

nice ride...

sorry, but i cant help you
but PB's explanation sounds good

 

[ashford]

you say it shifts fine and goes into gear fine with engine off, sounds like the clutch isn't releasing. does the car want to pull forward a little while trying to go into a lower gear? ive had pressure plate problems before one was cracked, one the "finger" pivot was out of adjustment and once it was my own fault left a sticker on the clutch disk. And this wasnt on a car it was a mack.( insert swear words of choice)

more than likely since it was shipped overseas it was damaged in transit. the best way to check is to look at the "fingers" on the pressure plate and see that they are all hitting the throwout bearing evenly with it just touching. my dads pickup has the same problem but the clutch will release about an inch from the floor, its annoying to drive it. Also check that nothing got caught between the flywheel and the pressure plate that can do it too.

 

[mp67]

The cltch set was a new one ... just a standard duty one I assume .. from NPD & cheap.

Could be the problem there. Too weak of a pressure plate maybe. Still sounds like a problem with the clutch and pressure plate. Clutch not being disengaged enough under the load of the moving car to shift properly. Can you run through the gears at an idle? BTW, why do you keep referencing pulling your motor to check the clutch and pressure plate?

 

[Spanish Dave]

Hi all
thanks for the reply mp67
I am convinced that there is a *hardware* related problem with the clutch. You asked if I can get any gears at idle ... the answer is no. The only way I can select a gear is by putting the car in gear and with the clutch pedal depressed, start the car. Thre is a noise then coming from the box (due to something still turning) ... the car will rev, tick over or whatever like this but when I release the clutch it will start to bite and will stall the engine if let right out. The noise is there all the time except if i deselect the gear into neutral ... then it goes, but I can't select another gear. This morning I had an idea that this could be caused by the tranny mounting bolts being loose (like many others were on this car) thus allowing the input shaft to be not square to the flywheel and causing drag. .... Unfortunately they were all tight
The reason I talk about pulling the motor again is that I can't see any other way of inspecting the clutch (I have peeped in through the hole round the clutch lever and the pressure plate seems to be working and moving half an inch or so). The only other way is to drop the tranny out, which means working on my back under the car ... not easy, specially as I have my buddies brand new engine crane here already. Pulling the engine now and dismantling the clutch seems the only thing left as there are no more adjustments etc. that I can do ... unless you know something I have missed.
Also I can't see how a pressure plate can be *too weak* when it is designed for a 289 .... fair enough it may not be up to coping with extra power, but should have no probs. in selecting gears at idle

 

[RaSMG]

doesn't sound like a shifter problem or even a transmission problem, most likely the throwout bearing is not fully engaging the pressure plate when the pedal is pressed. what kind of linkage is being used between the transmission and the clutch pedal and was it operational before the engine/tranny was removed/replaced? if it's the stock z bar/linkage setup then there is some adjustment but not much, would probably require pulling the tranny off the engine to double check the pressure plate and linkage to the throwout bearing and adjust it. if you have a later style cable or hydraulic linkage then there are usually adjustments on the bottom actuating cable or cylinder mounting on to the clutch throwout fork, you might be able to adjust it a little and get away with not pulling it back apart. look inside the clutch fork hole on the bellhousing .. you want the clutch fork and throwout bearing sitting right next to the pressure plates fingers or diaphragm when disengaged, less then 1/4" more like 1/8 or 1/16". then have someone push the pedal all the way to the floor(with the car off obviously) and see how much it moves/pushes in the fork and throwout bearing. If there is excessive slop when pressing the pedal before it disengages the pressure plate fingers or diaphragm, try to adjust it closer. if it were me i would take it apart and double check torque specs, assembly, and part numbers for fitment on the pressure plate, clutch disk, flywheel, starter, bellhousing, and even the transmission itself.

 

[mp67]

Hi all
thanks for the reply mp67
I am convinced that there is a *hardware* related problem with the clutch. You asked if I can get any gears at idle ... the answer is no. The only way I can select a gear is by putting the car in gear and with the clutch pedal depressed, start the car. Thre is a noise then coming from the box (due to something still turning) ... the car will rev, tick over or whatever like this but when I release the clutch it will start to bite and will stall the engine if let right out. The noise is there all the time except if i deselect the gear into neutral ... then it goes, but I can't select another gear. This morning I had an idea that this could be caused by the tranny mounting bolts being loose (like many others were on this car) thus allowing the input shaft to be not square to the flywheel and causing drag. .... Unfortunately they were all tight
The reason I talk about pulling the motor again is that I can't see any other way of inspecting the clutch (I have peeped in through the hole round the clutch lever and the pressure plate seems to be working and moving half an inch or so). The only other way is to drop the tranny out, which means working on my back under the car ... not easy, specially as I have my buddies brand new engine crane here already. Pulling the engine now and dismantling the clutch seems the only thing left as there are no more adjustments etc. that I can do ... unless you know something I have missed.
Also I can't see how a pressure plate can be *too weak* when it is designed for a 289 .... fair enough it may not be up to coping with extra power, but should have no probs. in selecting gears at idle

Car up on four jackstands, a decent floorjack, and you should have that tranny out in about 10 minutes. Seems easier than pulling motor back out. Anyway, what I meant about the pressure plate was that you said it was cheap, so sometimes quality is not good. Lots of cheap parts are supposedly designed for specific applications, but have quality issues. I'm thinking that when you push the clutch pedal in to disengage the clutch, it is not fully disengageing. That usually means clutch rod is not long enough, or pressure plate is bad. Maybe the throwout bearing is not engaging all three of the fork arms on the pressure plate, so you are not getting full disengaging of the clutch. So the noise you hear is the clutch partially engaged, flywheel spinning and rubbing against it, and when you let the pedal out a little, it engages fully stalling the engine. So you start the car in gear with the clutch pedal depressed and you hear noise so the clutch is partially engaged but not enough to move the car. But it is engaged enough so that you cannot select another gear. You slide it in neutral and the noise goes away because even though the flywheel is spinning against the partially engaged clutch, you are in neutral so there is no load on the clutch. Start the car in gear again and if you hear the noise, let it run a few minutes that way. If I'm right, I believe you will start to smell the clutch burning, like brakepads. If you leave the motor in and pull the tranny back out of the way, you can check to see if the throwout bearing is in place properly and engaging all three of the pressure plate forks. Sorry so long, but diagnosis over the internet takes a little typing. I believe your problem is either clutch rod adjustment, throwout bearing, or pressure plate. Could be clutch plate if it is the type that can be installed backwards, though I think most would not allow the pressure plate to be snugged down flush with the flywheel. Course, that could be problem as well. Did you make sure the pressure plate was snug to the flywheel all the way around? Even if the clutch is in right and you just tighten the pressure plate without torquing it down, then the pressure plate will not be snug to the flywheel. Just saw where you said the pressure plate is moving half and inch or so, and that does not sound like enough to fully disengage your clutch. Remember that when properly adjusted, your clutch pedal should travel out some before your car starts to move. At that point your clutch is only partially engaged and becomes further engaged when you release the pedal more. And you said that when you start it in gear and release the pedal a little, the car tries to move right away and stalls the engine. That would tell me that your clutch is fully engaging as soon as you release the pedal a little. Anyways, if the clutch rod is adjusted all the way out, I would pull the tranny with the engine still in car and check pressure plate and bearing and clutch plate installation. Hope this helps.

 

[Spanish Dave]

Hi there
thanks for the input mp67 .... I really thought that it would be more involved removing the tranny ... but what you say makes sense. I will be able to see how the parts are actually sitting with oneanother (is that a real word??) I have only got a small jack so I will have to put it up onto stands in *installments*
The noise that it makes is the transmission turning, not the clutch catching ... and the clutch *bites* about midway up through its travel .. in around the normal place. It is a diaphragm type clutch which replaced the 3 lever type which was in there. It was torqued down no problem to the flywheel.
Tomorrow's plan is to get the car up and remove the gearbox ... or should that be *tranny* for the US forum members!
I shall post my findings. ... It is a good job that I am a really patient person and think that I will learn something from everytime things go wrong

 

[Route666]

The noise has to be the clutch, if the transmission were turning, the car would move, and you say with the gearbox out of gear it doesn't make the noise, which tells me that when there is no resistance to the clutch, nothing is rubbing, like clutch on pressure plate.

I agree with the throw-out bearing not moving the fingers enough, the clutch doesn't disengage fully. Adjust the clutch is my suggestion.

 

[pabear89]

Before you start
Your replacing the 3 finger with a diaphram type.
Recheck your clutch setting.

You may have the petal freeplay to short and over flexing the coverplate
springs.
That will bind on the spring plate of the clutch disc.

Worth checking that first.

PB

 

[Spanish Dave]

Well I have found out what the problem is ..... ME


When I originally installed the clutch I took great care to see that the disk was in the right way round .... but I had problems lining the splines on the shaft up with the clutch and was worried that I had mis-aligned the disk with moving the engine round, so I whipped the engine back out and slackened the cover plate off and set up the disk again (I don't think it had moved actually)
Then when I went to torque up the cover, one of the bolts sheared and I had to remove the clutch and flywheel to drill the bolt out. I was probably too hasseled to realise that I put the disk back in the wrong way round .... the original disk would not be able to be intalled back to front, but this one was much thinner and could be. It has rubbed againt the flywheel bolts and has trashed the throw out bearing ... I suppose with being adjusted up really tight.
Anyway I have just sent for a new disk and bearing, and will definately not make the same mistake again.