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  • Fox 5.0 Mustang Tech

Car running VERY rich

  • Thread starter Thread starter bit
  • Start date Start date Mar 17, 2007

bit

Founding Member
Sep 27, 1999
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Anderson, SC
Mar 17, 2007
#1
  • Mar 17, 2007
  • #1
I am working on a 89 5.0 with a 80mm C&L mass air. The car is running very rich, fouling all the plugs. The car drives ok and idles fine, but if you give it any gas it just chokes. Currently the car gets about 50 miles to the tank. The car is throwing code 66: “Vane Air Flow (VAF) or Mass Air Flow (MAF) signal low - VAF MAF”. I have changed out the MAF sensor and it did not change anything and there are no vacuum leaks

Any ideas????

Thanks
Brent
 

4G-KDMP

10 Year Member
Jul 23, 2005
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Mar 17, 2007
#2
  • Mar 17, 2007
  • #2
maybe the 80 mm is a bit much
 

ponyboy19

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May 24, 2000
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Mar 18, 2007
#3
  • Mar 18, 2007
  • #3
Do you have the correct sampling tube installed to match your injectors to the maf. I once ran an 80mm C&L. I swapped it out for a 73mm and the car ran better all around. But it was never like your describing.
 

bit

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Sep 27, 1999
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Mar 18, 2007
#4
  • Mar 18, 2007
  • #4
The size of the MAF and the sample tube are not the problem. The car made 478RWHP with this setup and tune.

Brent
 
F

FastFord58

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Sep 11, 2006
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Mar 18, 2007
#5
  • Mar 18, 2007
  • #5
Probe the connector to check the voltage of the MAF to make sure it is getting enough/constant power.
 

jrichker

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#6
  • Mar 18, 2007
  • #6
Code 66 MAF below minimum test voltage.
Insufficient or no voltage from MAF. Dirty MAF element, bad MAF, bad MAF wiring, missing power to MAF. Check for missing +12 volts on this circuit. Check the two links for a wiring diagram to help you find the red wire for computer power relay switched +12 volts. Check for 12 volts between the red and black wires on the MAF heater (usually pins A & B). while the connector is plugged into the MAF. This may require the use of a couple of safety pins to probe the MAF connector from the back side of it.

There are three parts in a MAF: the heater, the sensor element and the amplifier. The heater heats the MAF sensor element causing the resistance to increase. The amplifier buffers the MAF output signal and has a resistor that is laser trimmed to provide an output range compatible with the computer's load tables.

The MAF element is secured by 2 screws & has 1 wiring connector. To clean the element, remove it from the MAF housing and spray it down with electronic parts cleaner or non-inflammable brake parts cleaner (same stuff in a bigger can and cheaper too).

The MAF output varies with RPM which causes the airflow to increase or decease. The increase of air across the MAF sensor element causes it to cool, allowing more voltage to pass and telling the computer to increase the fuel flow. A decrease in airflow causes the MAF sensor element to get warmer, decreasing the voltage and reducing the fuel flow. Measure the MAF output at pins C & D on the MAF connector (dark blue/orange and tan/light blue) or at pins 50 & 9 on the computer.

At idle = approximately .6 volt
20 MPH = approximately 1.10 volt
40 MPH = approximately 1.70 volt
60 MPH = approximately 2.10 volt

Check the resistance of the MAF signal wiring. Pin D on the MAF and pin 50 on the computer (dark blue/orange wire) should be less than 2 ohms. Pin C on the MAF and pin 9 on the computer (tan/light blue wire) should be less than 2 ohms.

There should be a minimum of 10K ohms between either pin C or D on the MAF and ground.

See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host)

http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif

http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91eecPinout.gif
 

bit

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Mar 18, 2007
#7
  • Mar 18, 2007
  • #7
Thanks jrichker, that is what I was looking for.

Brent
 

bit

Founding Member
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#8
  • Mar 18, 2007
  • #8
Resistance:
Pin 50:
1.0 ohms
Pin 9:
0.5 ohms
Pins C&D to B:
C: 9.95K ohms
D:10.5K ohms

Voltage:
11.5 volts key on car off

Output voltage:
Dark Blue/Orange: 0.8v at idle
Tan/Light Blue: 0.07v at idle <-------NOT GOOD!

Any ideas on what could cause this?

Brent
 

vristang

15 Year Member
Mar 31, 2005
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Mar 18, 2007
#9
  • Mar 18, 2007
  • #9
bit said:
The size of the MAF and the sample tube are not the problem. The car made 478RWHP with this setup and tune.

Brent
Click to expand...

VERIFY THE SAMPLING TUBE DIAMETER
especially if the problem started when the C&L was installed.
If this problem started out of the blue, then the sample tube can be safely ruled out.

C&L themselves have been known to ship the wrong tube for a given application.
It does not matter what kind of power numbers you have made.

The low voltage output at idle could be due to a number of things, but checking that the hardware is appropriate is the first step.

Pull the C&L and remove the sample tube.
If the color is still on the tube, ignore it and measure the sample tube diameter yourself.
I have most of the C&L sample tube diameters posted here...
http://www.freewebs.com/vristang/clsampletubes.htm
(there is a link on this page to the C&L 'calibration' page as well)

While you have everything apart, clean and inspect the MAS wires.
AND make sure you have the correct MAS part number, it should be 'F1ZF' for an A9* computer.

JR will give you great advice on doing the diagnostic stuff, but you really should confirm that you have the right hardware.

my opinion,
jason
 

jrichker

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  • Mar 19, 2007
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Make your voltage measurements across the C & D pins. Do not measure to ground, you will get false readings. The negative probe goes on one pin, the positive probe goes on the other that is the correct way to maeasure the MAF voltage.
 

bit

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#11
  • Mar 19, 2007
  • #11
The voltage is between 0.60 and 0.65v between the wires. Everything checks out for the sensor. What else could cause this problem? Would it be worth putting another computer in the car?

Thanks for any help guys.
Brent
 

bit

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Mar 19, 2007
#12
  • Mar 19, 2007
  • #12
So I switched computers and that did nothing. BUT after messing with the car for about an hour it no longer has the 66 code; however, it now has a few others.
Code 33: " ALL - (O, M) EGR did not open/ respond during test or if memory code, did not open intermittently - EVP EVR PFE"
Code 42: " (R) System rich - Fuel control
(M) System was rich for 15 seconds or more (no HO2S switching) - Fuel control"
Code 92: "R) System running rich - Fuel control
Transmission SS 2 circuit/solenoid problem - Transmissions"

vristang,
Thanks for the suggestions on the hardware, but the car has run great for more than a year. It is hard for me to believe this sudden change in behavior is caused by the sample tube.

Brent
 

jrichker

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#13
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Code 33 - Insufficient EGR flow detected.
Look for vacuum leaks, cracked vacuum lines, failed EGR vacuum regulator. Check to see if you have 10” of vacuum at the EGR vacuum connection coming from the intake manifold. Look for electrical signal at the vacuum regulator solenoid valves located on the rear of the passenger side wheel well. Using a test light across the electrical connector, it should flicker as the electrical signal flickers. Remember that the computer does not source any power, but provides the ground necessary to complete the circuit. That means one side of the circuit will always be hot, and the other side will go to ground or below 1 volt as the computer switches on that circuit.
Check for resistance between the brown/lt green wire on the EGR sensor and pin 27 on the computer: you should have less than 1 ohm.

See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host)

http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif

http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91eecPinout.gif


EGR test procedure courtesy of cjones

to check the EGR valve:
bring the engine to normal temp.
connect a vacuum pump to the EGR Valve
apply 5in vacuum to the valve.
if engine stumbled or died then EGR Valve and passage(there is a passageway through the heads and intake) are good.
if engine did NOT stumble or die then either the EGR Valve is bad and/or the passage is blocked.
if engine stumbled, connect vacuum gauge to the hose coming off of the EGR Valve
snap throttle to 2500 RPM (remember snap the throttle don't hold it there).
did the vacuum gauge show about 5in vacuum?

if not, check for manifold vacuum at the EGR vacuum valve.
if you have manifold vacuum then connect vacuum gauge to the EGR valve side of the vacuum valve and snap throttle to 2500 RPM.
should read about 5in vacuum

The operation of the EGR vacuum regulator can be checked by using a test light applied across the wiring connector. Jumper the computer into self test mode and turn the key on but do not start the engine. You will hear all the actuators (including the EVR vacuum regulator) cycle. Watch for the light to flicker: that means the computer has signaled the EGR vacuum regulator successfully.

Code 42 & 92 (running) System rich - Fuel control or (memory) System was rich for 15 seconds or more (no HO2S switching) - Fuel control. Look for leaking injectors, fuel pressure too high, cylinder(s) not firing due to bad ignition.
Testing the O2 sensors
Measuring the O2 sensor voltage at the computer will give you a good idea of how well they are working. You'll have to pull the passenger side kick panel off to gain access to the computer connector. Remove the plastic wiring cover to get to the back side of the wiring. Use a safety pin or paper clip to probe the connections from the rear. The computer pins are 29 (LH O2 with a dark green/pink wire) and 43 (RH O2 with a dark blue/pink wire). Use the ground next to the computer to ground the voltmeter.
 
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