Carbon CleanUp!

[Reverb]

Hey all,

I recently purchased an 89' Hatch 2.3L N/A Auto Transmission, and it has been causing a few problems.

Basically, it's idle sucks. It jumps from 800 to 1500 RPM slowly, and at random. It just idles a little then acts like it is going to die, then picks itself up again.

This is primarily at idle and in park; when in gear it is not as severe.

I also am only averaging between 9-11 miles per gallon, which odly enough, is worse than my 4.6 Powered Tbird.

I've done most of the basics - plugs, wires, cap, rotor, TPS, cleaned the IAC,EGR, Throttle Body, and upper and lower intakes.

TPS is set correctly at just under 1V, and it does not throw any codes.

I have noticed that the exhaust does leave a black marking on the ground after the car sits and idles for a while.

To my knowledge, the car has sat for the last year or so, and was not driven much at all.

When cleaning out the above items, and performing the regular maintenance on the car, I did notice an overwhelmingly abundant presence of carbon build up throughout.

Likely this could have something to do with my idle issue, and the overall performance and fuel economy of the car.

I am wondering if anyone has any suggestions on a good carbon cleaner that I could run through the engine to get rid of alot of the carbon?

I was considering using Sea-Foam through the intake vacuum, but would like some other opinions before I persue this.

Also open to any other suggestions that you may have, that I may have overlooked concerning the idle/carbon/efficiency issue.

Thanks for the insight!

 

[Tru_Blue_104]

I'd suggest doing an engine flush, that may help, probably not though. Still, its a good thing for it. I also have an 89 lx na with auto, and have the same problem. Try replacing the O2 sensor and fuel filter. Also, what brand plugs/wires/rotor did you use? Its most likely the auto causing the problems, thats what Ive been told. How many miles does the car have on it? When was the last time the tranny has had a flush and fill and filter change? Thats all I can think of for the time being, I'll post again after I stew on it a bit.

 

[SVOconvLX85]

I wouldn't attempt with the flushing. My dad did that when he changed his oil. He tried to get all of the old crap out and it washed the carbon out of the piston ring and then his car went through oil like crazy.

 

[Tru_Blue_104]

I wouldn't attempt with the flushing. My dad did that when he changed his oil. He tried to get all of the old crap out and it washed the carbon out of the piston ring and then his car went through oil like crazy.

I guess it may depend on how many miles are on the car. Mine had 75k, relativly low so I guess that may be why I didnt and dont have any problems. Also, I dont think my car burns any large amounts of oil. That really surprises me.

 

[Reverb]

Thanks for the suggestions!

Car has 131k on it.

I just replaced the transmission fluid/filter about 125 miles ago.

Fuel Filter is brand new as of 25 miles ago.


Plugs are Bosch Platinum.

Cap, Rotor, Wires, are all the Premium kind from Car Quest.


To clarify- it does not burn oil, or even use it at all. The exhaust more so "blows out" black carbon and vapor.

Idle is rough in park(goes up and down) - when in gear and at speed, the car is fairly smooth.

Pulled #1 Plug tonight and ran a micro light/mirror into the combustion chamber- it is covered with carbon deposits.


I personally don't buy into the bit that replacement parts absolutely have to be Motorcraft, or that the Auto Transmission would have much to do with this issue; although I have heard both sides of this matter; it just doesn't hold any weight by me based on my personal experiences.

Thanks Everyone.

Any further suggestions?

 

[JamesBaumann]

You could have a check at your timing. If it is running too rich then you would obviously be using up more fuel. Also, apparently if you replace your 02 sensor, that is supposed to increase fuel economy. You could get a bottle of STP fuel injector cleaner and run that through. Hell, you could even get a bottle of Ultra Fuel System Cleaner and just run that through it. Hope some of this helps.

Also, go to the link and look at all the idle set parts such as IAC Cleaning and Adjustment and basic idle reset. I see that you already adjusted your TPS.
http://projecthp.ford23.com/tech.html

 

[Tru_Blue_104]

Thanks for the suggestions!

Car has 131k on it.

I just replaced the transmission fluid/filter about 125 miles ago.

Fuel Filter is brand new as of 25 miles ago.


Plugs are Bosch Platinum.

Cap, Rotor, Wires, are all the Premium kind from Car Quest.


To clarify- it does not burn oil, or even use it at all. The exhaust more so "blows out" black carbon and vapor.

Idle is rough in park(goes up and down) - when in gear and at speed, the car is fairly smooth.

Pulled #1 Plug tonight and ran a micro light/mirror into the combustion chamber- it is covered with carbon deposits.


I personally don't buy into the bit that replacement parts absolutely have to be Motorcraft, or that the Auto Transmission would have much to do with this issue; although I have heard both sides of this matter; it just doesn't hold any weight by me based on my personal experiences.

Thanks Everyone.

Any further suggestions?

Well, I still say that you should flush the engine. That will definatly clean those deposites out. Also, if your car doesnt burn oil, then I wouldnt worry about the flush hurting it.

About the motorcraft parts: I also had bosch plugs and wires. I then switched to motorcraft. You're right, they dont have to be motorcraft, the car will run on any brand. But honestly, from my own experience, the motorcraft plugs and wires make a HUGE difference.

Up to you though, thats just my two cents.

 

[Rebel-OUTLAW]

Heres my 10 cents my 2 cents is free!

As far as cleaning the carbon deposits, get the engine running at normal operating temp and remove the airfilter. Poor cold water down the intake at idle but not so much as to snuff the motor. Do this a couple of times. Then hold the throttle at about 2500-3500 RPM and poor more cold water into the intake. Just enough to load the motor but not snuff it! The RPM should drop as you dump in the water and the engine may require more throttle at the same time.
Heres the science...The water is cold and as droplets ow water come in contact with the carbon they cool it quickly causing it to contract (carbon is porous and brittle.) The reason you start at a low RPM is to avoid breaking off large chunks.
Then spend the next few months running a cup of Methyl Hydrate with each tank of gas (found in you local hardware store with the paint thinners).
This is a myth my father used and seemed to work on a chrysler slant six (the leaning tower of power...went over 300 000mi). If it does nothing atleast its cheap!

As far as the plugs go...Always use Motorcraft plugs and heres why...
Using AC delco is a sin. Champions are Motorcraft. Bosch Co. has the lowest quality and defect standards. I wont even mention NGK or Denso cause they are for my grocery getter! Buying platinum or double platinum is a waste of money. just replace them every 8-10 000mi. Platinums are for people who don't want to do tune ups on thier cars. They last longer because they stay cleaner, but don't give any performance value or cleaning power.

Hope I could help, Ill check back in a couple of days if I think of anything.

 

[Reverb]

Update:

I ran the Sea-Foam through the vacumm in the intake.

Let it sit for a good half hour, fired it up and took it out for a spin on the highway. Tried to keep 2.5k to 3k RPM on the tac most of the time as well.

It does seem to run a little smoother, however, it still has a noticable idle problem.


Running Lucas Fuel Additive on 92 Octane Fuel, that seemed to help immensely also.

Still doesn't throw any codes.


Going to have a freind computer time it on Monday.

I may try the O2 sensor, however, I can not see how it would be causing the rough idle either.

Thanks again everyone. Your suggestions are great!

Any other thoughts?

 

[stangs4evr-roy]

ashcan the platinums and wires!!!!!!! go to oem (motorcraft) l dont know why but the 2.3 runs like crap on anything else but oem. also for the carbon pull off your egr and check it as it may be your idle issue also check o2 sensor for carbon just my 2cents.

 

[Paul C.]

Didn't see air filter listed in the stuff you replaced. I think an O2 sensor wouldn't hurt either.

 

[phordguy]

Have you checked the vacuum? A vacuum leak can cause big idle problems as well as make it run very rich... Just a thought

 

[Reverb]

Update:

Had the car Computer Timed today. It's perfect at 10 degrees.

Also did a compression test. This not so perfect.

Compression Test
-----------------

Cyl 1. 180
Cyl 2. 180
Cyl 3. 125
Cyl 4. 180


Grumble Grumble.


Thinking it is possibly a sticky valve that is causing the drop in #3 Cylinder.

I discussed the test results with a freind at the local machine shop, and he said that with the amount of carbon build up in the engine, that the carbon itself is likely causing the problem and said that I should continue to run Sea Foam and Valve Medic in the engine and drive it a lot for a while.

Basically, he said that if the carbon itself is causing the drop in #3 cylinder, that with the Sea Foam and Valve Medic, normal driving should take care of this by itself in a while and re-gain some of the lost compression in the #3 cylinder.

Since he's a machinist/mechanic of nearly 20+ years, and also builds race and replacement engines on a regular basis, his advice does make sense.


Vacuum is also all fine, Air filter has been replaced as well. I replaced the OEM Motorcraft Plug Wires due to age.(Even though they were well within resistance spec's.) Problem was still there with the Motorcraft Part, and is still there now- hence one reason that I do not agree that it absolutely has to be a Motorcraft Replacement.

o2 Sensor tests within spec, doesn't throw a code, so I pulled it and cleaned it.

EGR has also been previously cleaned. - Considering the Delete for it however, as it is just a damn continuing annoyance.

Still having the same issue as I was when I began this thread.....

Anycase, I appreciate the advice everyone. Anyone have any further thoughts on the updated information?

Thanks!

 

[i4power]

I would venture a guess in saying that you have a blown head gasket around the #3 cylinder. Also, that thick black stuff might be from your car running too rich. Does the car emit a gas smell at idle in the car? How does the exhaust sound? If it sounds kinda sputtery and gross, maybe your catalytic convertors are clogged/worn out. This was causing a slight performance problem with my car, and a new cat fixed it.

I don't think a sticky valve would cause a drop in compression, because if that happened, the piston would get chewed up from slamming into it over and over again, causing it to run even worse. Can intake/exhaust valves even become "sticky"?

Lastly, wouldn't carbon buildup in an engine INCREASE compression, because it would reduce the total volume of the combustion chamber?

 

[JamesBaumann]

If the mechanic thinks that it could be carbon deposits within the engine, then I would recommend taking previous advice and going ahead with the engine flush. Also, I dont remember seeing a routine oil change on the list of things you have done to it. Maybe you should try that, it could probably use one anyway. In one of your earlier posts you said that you were getting 9-11 mpg, has that increased at all after doing all this stuff to it? Just out of curiosity. Essentially, my only advice at this point would be an engine flush and an oil change. Continue to run premium 92 octane fuel for a few tanks. Did you ever run any of that fuel system cleaner through it? Could be another idea.

 

[i4power]

What do you mean by "engine flush" anyways? Flush out the water jackets in the head and block?

 

[Reverb]

I would venture a guess in saying that you have a blown head gasket around the #3 cylinder. Also, that thick black stuff might be from your car running too rich. Does the car emit a gas smell at idle in the car? How does the exhaust sound? If it sounds kinda sputtery and gross, maybe your catalytic convertors are clogged/worn out. This was causing a slight performance problem with my car, and a new cat fixed it.

I thought about that too, however, I kind of nixed that, as the car does not overheat, use any coolant, and holds pressure when I pressure tested the cooling system.

The car runs very rich. Exhaust has a strong chemical smell to it. Exhaust sounds like crap. Like its running on 2-3 cylinders. The car shakes pretty violently at idle (if that's what you would call it.) Surges like crazy.

Converter has been removed, as it was plugged. Just a strait pipe back to the muffler now.

I don't think a sticky valve would cause a drop in compression, because if that happened, the piston would get chewed up from slamming into it over and over again, causing it to run even worse. Can intake/exhaust valves even become "sticky"?

Lastly, wouldn't carbon buildup in an engine INCREASE compression, because it would reduce the total volume of the combustion chamber?

Oh yeah, I can see what you are saying. All I can tell you is that I have pulled the plugs to clean them twice today- and both times they were heavily covered in carbon.

If the mechanic thinks that it could be carbon deposits within the engine, then I would recommend taking previous advice and going ahead with the engine flush. Also, I dont remember seeing a routine oil change on the list of things you have done to it. Maybe you should try that, it could probably use one anyway. In one of your earlier posts you said that you were getting 9-11 mpg, has that increased at all after doing all this stuff to it? Just out of curiosity. Essentially, my only advice at this point would be an engine flush and an oil change. Continue to run premium 92 octane fuel for a few tanks. Did you ever run any of that fuel system cleaner through it? Could be another idea.

Well, I am the mechanic for my own vehicles. Have been for the last 9 years; even carried ASE Certification for 5 of those years. Just never had much luck with the 2.3L at all. I had a freind with a ton more experience than I look at it, and we both came up with about the same conclusion with the carbon.

I allready flushed the engine with Sea Foam last week. It smoothed out for a while, but since then, the engine has been running a lot worse.


Added it through the vacuum and also in the tank.

Still Running 92 Octane with Lucas Fuel Additive.

9-11 MPG would be it, and that may be stretching it now as well.

Oil change was allready done. I change mine every 2000 miles at most. Often times at 1500. I like to keep things clean in my car.

Never had any of these issues ever in any of my 4.6 and 5.0 vehicles, it seems to always come up in these 2.3's.

In all honesty, I don't think that I have actually had a positive 2.3L experience yet.......

Chalk another one up to that list.

</frustrated>

 

[i4power]

I still think it's your head gasket. It doesn't have to be completely, violently blown out, it could have a small chip or crack in it. My first turbo engine had this happen, and the combustion was passing between two cylinders, turning it into a saw and it cut a 1" hole in the wall between 2 and 3.

 

[phordguy]

If your vacuum is ok, it sounds like you have multiple problems going on, excess carbon, valve sealing issues, fuel problems. For fuel it could be a stuck fuel pressure regulator/injector/map sensor/computer. Also I'm sure you know that the EEC temperature sensor can through off the mixture to the rich side too if it things the engine is running cold. Lots of things I know, but dude it sounds like that 2.3L has been rode hard and put up wet, what kind of fuel pressure is it running at idle with the vacuum line on and off? Has someone swapped bigger 19lb injectors on it or (gasp) low impedance green/brown (30/35 pound) 2.3 turbo injectors? The stock injectors are 14 lb high impedance for your car. You can melt out the carbon by steam cleaning with water and lower octane gas, 87 will burn hotter and make the combustion temps higher thus burning out the carbon. Methanol can help burn it out the carbon too, although it has less BTU value than gas but you are really rich so it will be ok to run the pure methanol at idle or a mixture to clean it out.

 

[Reverb]

Thanks again for all the advice.

From what I gather of the car, it has not been maintained all that well by it's previous owners, has been abused a bit, and generally sat too long.

Update:

I pulled the vacuum hose off the pressure regulator and it dumped fuel everywhere.

Looks as if the regulator is faulty and has been feeding excess fuel throughout the vacuum lines.


Going to tear into that tonight if time allows. I'll be sure to provide an update as to what happens.

Thanks again!