Coyote swap.

Gearbanger 101 · Apr 10, 2013

krazedstang said:
That. was. amazing. Can I print that and mail it to all my LS loving friends?

You can, but don't expect it to go over well. Facts be damned, crows are always going to be white in some people eyes.

This really wasn't meant as an LS bashing rant. I dig anything with 8-cylinders built by the big 3. I just hate to see such a home run by Ford being fluffed off by the diehards wearing blinders simply because it hasn't got pushrods or a Bowtie on the intake plenum.

BTW, not referring to you specifically 90lxcoupe. Just making a generalized statement based on some of the reactions from the Brand X crowd.

90lxcoupe · Apr 10, 2013

Gearbanger 101 said:
While it's true the LS blocks can handle power levels surpassing 1,200hp (which I will give GM loads of credit for).....realistically, how many people are pushing them to that level? Heck....how many people are pushing them to half those power levels? I'll bet less than 1% of owners. For the most part, most LS engines prowling the streets seem to running within the 350-650hp range. Coyote's have proven reliable...dare I say comfortable in those power ranges.

Not a ton of people are, but the option is there to do it, and knowing how much power they can make, if you wanted to make 500 to 700hp and not worry about building a dart block, or spending 7k on a coyote, its a very good option.

Gearbanger 101 said:
As far as displacement goes, you don't see the guys doing the 4.8L swaps running them N/A. Heck, they have trouble matching the output of the last N/A 3V & 4V 4.6L engine without a power adder. Every time in recent history GM has tried to go cubic inch, for cubic inch with Ford, they've been blown off the map! I can't stress how much these engines are really nothing special without displacement, or FI to make them come alive. I mean really...why would anyone be impressed with a 6.2L making 420+hp, when Ford is getting the job done with a 5.0L?

you can pretty much build an easy 450hp NA 4.8 or 5.3, but if you were going NA, most people would do a 6.0 and just make around 550. Fords 6.2L makes 411hp BTW.

Gearbanger 101 said:
If anything, the GM crowd should be thankful that Ford decides to stick with the nostalgia trend and keep the Coyote in the 5.0L range. I shudder to think what they'd be capable of in 6.0L...or heaven forbid 7.0L displacement. Any bets as to how the LS7 might fair against a 7.0L Coyote?

I think the LS7 would do fine against a 7L coyote, because the only thing a 7L DOHC engine would fit in is a super duty or a school bus.

90lxcoupe · Apr 10, 2013

Gearbanger 101 said:
BTW, not referring to you specifically 90lxcoupe. Just making a generalized statement based on some of the reactions from the Brand X crowd.

I agree, not trying to take anything away from ford either, just cant beat the simplicity, size and budget friendlyness of the LS motors, which is the point im trying to make.

There are guys like that on every side of their brand.

Gearbanger 101 · Apr 10, 2013

90lxcoupe said:
you can pretty much build an easy 450hp NA 4.8 or 5.3, but if you were going NA, most people would do a 6.0 and just make around 550. Fords 6.2L makes 411hp BTW.

An "easy" 450hp? I'd have to see that for myself to believe it. That's more than 180hp over stock for the 4.8L. I realize truck engines give up a little power through the intake and exhaust in comparison to a car, but that's ridiculous. I can only recall on company (Westech Performance) who has ever made a claim to that extent (and that was with a 5.3L...not a 4.8L) and even the GM faithful's called on them.

As for Fords 6.2L. Lets also play by the same rules and keep in mind....that it is also in a truck and subject to intake and exhaust restriction as well as greater drivetrain loss. And for that matter, not a DOHC TiVCT engine either.

90lxcoupe said:
I think the LS7 would do fine against a 7L coyote, because the only thing a 7L DOHC engine would fit in is a super duty or a school bus.

Nahhh, Ford would just have to employ GM thinking and just build the car around the engine, instead of the other way around.

90lxcoupe · Apr 10, 2013

Gearbanger 101 said:
An "easy" 450hp? I'd have to see that for myself to believe it. That's more than 180hp over stock for the 4.8L. I realize truck engines give up a little power through the intake and exhaust in comparison to a car, but that's ridiculous. I can only recall on company (Westech Performance) who has ever made a claim to that extent (and that was with a 5.3L...not a 4.8L) and even the GM faithful's called on them.

As for Fords 6.2L. Lets also play by the same rules and keep in mind....that it is also in a truck and subject to intake and exhaust restriction as well as greater drivetrain loss. And for that matter, not a DOHC TiVCT engine either.

The truck ratings are at the flywheel, so the drivetrain loss doesnt come into play with the 411hp rating.

As far as 4.8s go, i dont see many of them being built NA, but the "big bang theory" 4.8 that hot rod did the twin turbos on made 450hp and 380 tq with a blower cam. The motor had was a stock shortblock, with stock casting, CNC ported heads, turbo cam, and the FAST intake. Nothing any crazier than a HCI 302w

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/hrdp_1109_stock_gm_ls_engine_big_bang_theory/

Disclaimer, if you read that article, they keep calling it a 5.3 but after they tore it down they realized it was the shorter stroke 4.8L motor, both the 4.8 and 5.3 share the same bore size.

scottyheps · Apr 10, 2013

Thanks for the input guys! It seems everyone (even my GM buddies) share the same excitement and encouraging words! I stopped at Western Motorsports today out of Calgary. They know their mustangs and had some very helpful input on this idea. They havent put one in a fox yet but have dropped them in various other vehicles and with good luck. So all thats left now is to save some pennies and see how many I have when it comes time to buy it. I'd love to go straight to the charger but that starts getting pricey in a hurry. There is always this option also......http://www.roushperformance.com/engines/50l-coyote-rsc.html

Gearbanger 101 · Apr 11, 2013

90lxcoupe said:
The truck ratings are at the flywheel, so the drivetrain loss doesnt come into play with the 411hp rating.

You are correct. So just intake, exhaust and ECU tune restrictions then.

90lxcoupe said:
As far as 4.8s go, i dont see many of them being built NA, but the "big bang theory" 4.8 that hot rod did the twin turbos on made 450hp and 380 tq with a blower cam. The motor had was a stock shortblock, with stock casting, CNC ported heads, turbo cam, and the FAST intake. Nothing any crazier than a HCI 302w

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/hrdp_1109_stock_gm_ls_engine_big_bang_theory/

Disclaimer, if you read that article, they keep calling it a 5.3 but after they tore it down they realized it was the shorter stroke 4.8L motor, both the 4.8 and 5.3 share the same bore size.

Yup....that's the one I spoke of above that everyone (including GM faithful's) called BS on. Even Hot Rod said they felt the numbers we suspect based on the abnormally high power curve.....and that's when they thought the engine was a 5.3L. Ported heads, cam and intake will most certainly make an improvement...and sure the engine dyno run was made without accessories, but let's be realistic here. That's 170hp gain over stock! I can't get the flag up fast enough to call that one.

I guess all it takes is one flawed dyno test to get the masses excited though....even if NOBODY else has been able to duplicate those numbers since? I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that the real numbers are considerably lower (probably near 50-75hp) than that on any properly calibrated dyno.....especially since that 4.8L is encroaching on bolt-on 6.0L LS2 territory.

scottyheps said:
Thanks for the input guys! It seems everyone (even my GM buddies) share the same excitement and encouraging words! I stopped at Western Motorsports today out of Calgary. They know their mustangs and had some very helpful input on this idea. They havent put one in a fox yet but have dropped them in various other vehicles and with good luck. So all thats left now is to save some pennies and see how many I have when it comes time to buy it. I'd love to go straight to the charger but that starts getting pricey in a hurry. There is always this option also......http://www.roushperformance.com/engines/50l-coyote-rsc.html

There is no doubt....you would certainly be unique with that engine under your hood. I try to make it a habit to not make my engines, worth more than the rest of my car personally.

02 281 GT · Apr 11, 2013

Gearbanger 101 said:
Nahhh, Ford would just have to employ GM thinking and just build the car around the engine, instead of the other way around.

As I recall, the 427 SOHC back in the late-'60s wasn't terribly massive. I don't imagine it would have been much more massive with an extra cam on each side. I think Ford could definitely squeeze 7.0L into a Coyote-based platform with the right engineering. Maybe they're planning something like this as we speak.

90lxcoupe · Apr 11, 2013

Gearbanger 101 said:
I guess all it takes is one flawed dyno test to get the masses excited though....even if NOBODY else has been able to duplicate those numbers since? I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that the real numbers are considerably lower (probably near 50-75hp) than that on any properly calibrated dyno.....especially since that 4.8L is encroaching on bolt-on 6.0L LS2 territory.

To make statements like that, you would have to give evidence that someone has actually tried to duplicate that test. Like i said before, nobody builds 4.8s. Its just like on the yellowbullet, when a guy posted his 650hp dyno sheet, on a build that was junkyard parts and with some cheap tricks pulled. Everyone called bs, said the dyno was happy, etc, etc, then when it went low 10s at 133+ mph all the doubters were silenced.

RangerJoe · Apr 11, 2013

scottyheps said:
Thanks for the input guys! It seems everyone (even my GM buddies) share the same excitement and encouraging words! I stopped at Western Motorsports today out of Calgary. They know their mustangs and had some very helpful input on this idea. They havent put one in a fox yet but have dropped them in various other vehicles and with good luck. So all thats left now is to save some pennies and see how many I have when it comes time to buy it. I'd love to go straight to the charger but that starts getting pricey in a hurry. There is always this option also......http://www.roushperformance.com/engines/50l-coyote-rsc.html

Thats a lot of money for that motor. I would be inclined to think you could build that motor much cheaper; although, i haven't priced it out myself. The description doesn't mention compression ratios or rod and piston material. Makes me wonder if its not just stock internals and the 11.0 compression ratio.

Joe

Gearbanger 101 · Apr 11, 2013

90lxcoupe said:
To make statements like that, you would have to give evidence that someone has actually tried to duplicate that test. Like i said before, nobody builds 4.8s. Its just like on the yellowbullet, when a guy posted his 650hp dyno sheet, on a build that was junkyard parts and with some cheap tricks pulled. Everyone called bs, said the dyno was happy, etc, etc, then when it went low 10s at 133+ mph all the doubters were silenced.

Well....lets use a little common sense on this one. You don't think it's at all suspect that a 4.8L with nothing more than ported heads, cam and intake is making horsepower numbers that rival bolt on 6.0L's?

Why wouldn't someone want to run a N/A 4.8L after seeing that dyno test, right? 450hp is just a stock head port, cam and intake swap away? I'd think after that, this engine combo would be the hot ticket and everyone would be running one?

Here's another dyno test with real world number taken at the wheels. You'll notice where the 4.8L scores in both horsepower and torque in comparison to the 5.3L, 5.7L and 6.0L? Right around 220rwhp/225rwtq. Even with the drivetrain and accessory loss, that's not anywhere close to 451hp/380tq, is it? Man, that must be some port job on those stock heads?

http://www.s10forum.com/forum/f213/lsx-stock-dyno-graphs-4-8l-5-3l-5-7l-6-0l-lq9-330477/

Here's another....did as well as 254rwhp after a dyno tune

90lxcoupe · Apr 11, 2013

Bolt on 6.0's make 550hp. I cant answer your questions because its ridiculous to compare a dyno number in a truck with all factory parts, to stuff with much better valvetrain and heads that flow close to 300CFM. I couldnt get TEA's exact numbers because they arent on the site anymore, WCCH does a 4.8/5.3 head that flows 280cfm.

That motor peaked at 7000 rpm, and made 150hp(assuming you use 20% for the drivetrain loss, which i think is fair for a truck) over the truck dyno sheets that peak at 5500rpms. So there was 1500 more rpm to work with, a better intake manifold, better valvetrain, better heads, better camshaft, no smog equipment, no accessories and tuned for horsepower, not to save fuel.

Again, like i said before, show me a similar 4.8 build. BUILD, not a stock truck with accessories, smog equipment, factory computer, cam, heads, intake. Until you show me that your original points arent valid, and this conversation is just going in circles because you cant compare stock truck numbers to stripped engine dyno numbers.

Also, where did you see any GM guys call BS on that hot rod article for the NA numbers, the boosted numbers, thats a different story.

Gearbanger 101 · Apr 11, 2013

Sigh....ok man, I'm not gonna argue anymore. You win....

Bullitt347 · Apr 11, 2013

I think it is very telling that you do not see Ford engines put into GM chassis cars..............and it has nothing to do with the Ford being a "bad" engine.

Coyote swap.

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