Dart Or Stock?

[90sickfox]

His car is a street car. That motor has been in his car for at least 7 or 8 years.

I don't want to give you a bad taste for 427s. His motor was built by a well known builder, but had issues. Some were due to the machine work, some were cheap parts, his cooling system couldn't keep up. He broke rockers...went through a couple cams and a crankshaft. Every time he'd go through the whole motor. That thing has seen a lot of different sets of all kinds of stuff. He even had an issue with a high volume oil pump that starved the motor...all the oil went to the valve covers faster than it returned to the pan.

That car has made 10hr trips to Mustang Week...but its always had something going on. As far as I know he hasn't had any problems with the trans or rear diff.

I've heard of guys running them reliably but I don't, personally, know any. I do know a few guys running 408s and 393s.

My friend , Sam, is 64 years old so he's not the type to tear ish up anymore. He's just had a bad stroke of luck with that motor. Its like a sickness he just can't shake. It'll run great for a couple of months and then BAM !!! It strikes again. I understand, 427 is custom painted all over his cars hood and fenders but jeesh. Out of the 7 or 8 years its only been running a handful of summers.

 

[Gear grabber]

stock parts as in what specifically? I'm thinking you mean the flywheel forward towards the front of the car

No,flywheel back. 10 spline T-5 and 28 spline c-clip diff. is a accident waiting to happen behind a 427.
Not to mention,fuel,cooling,chassis...

 

[from6to8]

No,flywheel back. 10 spline T-5 and 28 spline c-clip diff. is a accident waiting to happen behind a 427.
Not to mention,fuel,cooling,chassis...

Oh for the 400 I have already settled on a TKO 600 so I'd most definitely match up the tranny to what I'm building. Also definitely a big radiator, fuel pump, Subframe so and going to do front end work as well as rear end stuff. Aftermarket control arms, ect. Anything else a must as far as beefing up the suspension?

Would I need larger fuel lined from.tank to front?

 

[from6to8]

His car is a street car. That motor has been in his car for at least 7 or 8 years.

I don't want to give you a bad taste for 427s. His motor was built by a well known builder, but had issues. Some were due to the machine work, some were cheap parts, his cooling system couldn't keep up. He broke rockers...went through a couple cams and a crankshaft. Every time he'd go through the whole motor. That thing has seen a lot of different sets of all kinds of stuff. He even had an issue with a high volume oil pump that starved the motor...all the oil went to the valve covers faster than it returned to the pan.

That car has made 10hr trips to Mustang Week...but its always had something going on. As far as I know he hasn't had any problems with the trans or rear diff.

I've heard of guys running them reliably but I don't, personally, know any. I do know a few guys running 408s and 393s.

My friend , Sam, is 64 years old so he's not the type to tear ish up anymore. He's just had a bad stroke of luck with that motor. Its like a sickness he just can't shake. It'll run great for a couple of months and then BAM !!! It strikes again. I understand, 427 is custom painted all over his cars hood and fenders but jeesh. Out of the 7 or 8 years its only been running a handful of summers.

Wow yea that sucks. Sounds like my boy who what from a 331 347 to the 408 and have hats has had issues with all Motors and his car and the past probably 8 years maybe ran three total out of three motors it seems fine now I believe with the 408. But I'd like to talk to your friend just to get it from the horse's mouth in to hear what he would recommend me to do. And I definitely talking to my builder won't cheap out on any parts so I believe in doing it right the first time definitely. But yeah if they're somehow someway I could give him a call or something or he could call me and he could give me some first-hand information that would help

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

You forgot the cheapest stroker...393....don't forget 427, 460, 521...

You've got me researching 460 big block combos...this could be bad for me...and my marriage.

With aluminum heads they weigh about 100lbs more than a stock 302. Some of that can be regained with aftermarket k member, control arms, and front suspension. The brake booster goes bye bye...but I'm sure hydroboost would work.

That thing would put down 500 N/A just with bolt on heads and a cookie cutter cam. The torque would be right at your toes.

My wife would be on my heels with a baseball bat. She's a Ford girl...but I'm sure I have my limits

It's the cheapest 7.oh you'll ever build.

Up until the early 90's (with one exception) I have always had SBF's in every project I've ever built. Even the black and white car in my avatar was a solid roller cammed 357. Even w/ a 12:1 CR, a super victor, World SR heads,.A C4 w/ a 3500 stall converter and 4.56 gears,.that car would only go a 7.80 N/A in the 1/8th.

Then I built my first 460.

Using the cheapest path I could, I built a very mild .030 build ( Because I was out to prove to all the Chevy boys down here in the south that you could build a fast Ford as cheap as you could a sorry assed Chevrolet).

That engine had a forged, dished TRW piston that weighed a ton (and at 4.360 bore,...looked like a coffee can)
A Comp solid lifter flat tappet cam.
A Weiand Stealth dual plane intake.
A set of reworked and hand ported passenger car heads (they call these heads Thunder jets instead of Cobra jets)
2" swap headers.
Stock rods w/ good bolts.
Turned stock crank.
Stock Duraspark distributor
MSD 6 ignition
Holley 3310 vacuum secondary carb.
Back in 1995,...this engine had approximately 800.00 in the shortblock,...another 1000.00 in the top end,...

1800.00, including machine work. A bonafide "You can't build a BBC chevy engine cheaper" testament.

I also slapped a NOS Super powershot plate under that vacuum secondary carb, and put that on top of a dual plane intake manifold.

And put all of that in a 1980 Mustang coupe.

Right out of the box,.....the very first pass after driving it through the gates at the track, the car went a 7.15 1/8th N/A.
I eventually tuned that down to a 7.08.

Sprayed, the car would go 6.50's,...I stacked a second plate on top of the first one, and staged, the car would always go in the 6.30's.

Then I'd drive it back home.

You don't need to build a stroked version of this engine,..it already outperforms a SBF in almost near stock dimensions.
Show me a 5.0 or even a 351 built as mildly, using a stock head that'll run an 11.00 in the 1/4, and I'll shut up.

It was heavy no doubt. and if you intend to X cross or road race the car, forget it. But as a street driver/weekend warrior...It's hell for a Chevy boy.

 

[from6to8]

His car is a street car. That motor has been in his car for at least 7 or 8 years.

I don't want to give you a bad taste for 427s. His motor was built by a well known builder, but had issues. Some were due to the machine work, some were cheap parts, his cooling system couldn't keep up. He broke rockers...went through a couple cams and a crankshaft. Every time he'd go through the whole motor. That thing has seen a lot of different sets of all kinds of stuff. He even had an issue with a high volume oil pump that starved the motor...all the oil went to the valve covers faster than it returned to the pan.

That car has made 10hr trips to Mustang Week...but its always had something going on. As far as I know he hasn't had any problems with the trans or rear diff.

I've heard of guys running them reliably but I don't, personally, know any. I do know a few guys running 408s and 393s.

My friend , Sam, is 64 years old so he's not the type to tear ish up anymore. He's just had a bad stroke of luck with that motor. Its like a sickness he just can't shake. It'll run great for a couple of months and then BAM !!! It strikes again. I understand, 427 is custom painted all over his cars hood and fenders but jeesh. Out of the 7 or 8 years its only been running a handful of summers.

Wow yea that sucks. Sounds like my boy who what from a 331 347 to the 408 and have hats has had issues with all Motors and his car and the past probably 8 years maybe ran three total out of three motors it seems fine now I believe with the 408. But I like to talk to your friend just to get it from the horse's mouth in to hear what he would recommend me to do. And I definitely talking to a builder won't cheap out on any parts so I believe in doing it right the first time

It's the cheapest 7.oh you'll ever build.

Up until the early 90's (with one exception) I have always had SBF's in every project I've ever built. Even the black and white car in my avatar was a solid roller cammed 357. Even w/ a 12:1 CR, a super victor, World SR heads,.A C4 w/ a 3500 stall converter and 4.56 gears,.that car would only go a 7.80 N/A in the 1/8th.

Then I built my first 460.

Using the cheapest path I could, I built a very mild .030 build ( Because I was out to prove to all the Chevy boys down here in the south that you could build a fast Ford as cheap as you could a sorry assed Chevrolet).

That engine had a forged, dished TRW piston that weighed a ton (and at 4.360 bore,...looked like a coffee can)
A Comp solid lifter flat tappet cam.
A Weiand Stealth dual plane intake.
A set of reworked and hand ported passenger car heads (they call these heads Thunder jets instead of Cobra jets)
2" swap headers.
Stock rods w/ good bolts.
Turned stock crank.
Stock Duraspark distributor
MSD 6 ignition
Holley 3310 vacuum secondary carb.
Back in 1995,...this engine had approximately 800.00 in the shortblock,...another 1000.00 in the top end,...

1800.00, including machine work. A bonafide "You can't build a BBC chevy engine cheaper" testament.

I also slapped a NOS Super powershot plate under that vacuum secondary carb, and put that on top of a dual plane intake manifold.

And put all of that in a 1980 Mustang coupe.

Right out of the box,.....the very first pass after driving it through the gates at the track, the car went a 7.15 1/8th N/A.
I eventually tuned that down to a 7.08.

Sprayed, the car would go 6.50's,...I stacked a second plate on top of the first one, and staged, the car would always go in the 6.30's.

Then I'd drive it back home.

You don't need to build a stroked version of this engine,..it already outperforms a SBF in almost near stock dimensions.
Show me a 5.0 or even a 351 built as mildly, using a stock head that'll run an 11.00 in the 1/4, and I'll shut up.

It was heavy no doubt. and if you intend to X cross or road race the car, forget it. But as a street driver/weekend warrior...It's hell for a Chevy boy.

Good info. That's why I like hearing from guys like you who have been there and done that and can give someone like me who just wants a badass street car some advice and information. I get what guys are saying about using the stock block and that's all I will need and I hear what my Builder is saying about you know trying to find one and possibly potentially having a good bit of money tied up in doing that being he is probably going to search for the block in Texas where he is instead of me trying to find a good one and shipping it to him. So I'm not exactly sure whiChat route yet but if I did go with the dart I would definitely want to maximize it for something that's going to give me what I'm looking for on the street and at the same time not having something that I don't or too much on the street so kind of a tricky situation I guess.

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

Wow yea that sucks. Sounds like my boy who what from a 331 347 to the 408 and have hats has had issues with all Motors and his car and the past probably 8 years maybe ran three total out of three motors it seems fine now I believe with the 408. But I like to talk to your friend just to get it from the horse's mouth in to hear what he would recommend me to do. And I definitely talking to a builder won't cheap out on any parts so I believe in doing it right the first time

Good info. That's why I like hearing from guys like you who have been there and done that and can give someone like me who just wants a badass street car some advice and information

All depends on what you're trying to accomplish.
A BBF swap is just as easy now days as any other engine. It fits a Fox better than any Ford engine bay that had the engine in it stock.
If you're looking for fast street car for cheap, that's also different because nobody will do this, (cause they all have a problem putting 700 pounds of cast iron in front of the firewall) But,..don't think twice about putting twin turbos on a SBF.

Wonder how much this weighs when it's all said and done:

Now I know full well that a TT 5.0 setup will make a ton of power more than an N/A heavy old 460 will
But that still don't change the fact that you now have 700 pounds in front of the firewall.

 

[from6to8]

All depends on what you're trying to accomplish.
A BBF swap is just as easy now days as any other engine. It fits a Fox better than any Ford engine bay that had the engine in it stock.
If you're looking for fast street car for cheap, that's also different because nobody will do this, (cause they all have a problem putting 700 pounds of cast iron in front of the firewall) But,..don't think twice about putting twin turbos on a SBF.

Wonder how much this weighs when it's all said and done:

Now I know full well that a TT 5.0 setup will make a ton of power more than an N/A heavy old 460 will
But that still don't change the fact that you now have 700 pounds in front of the firewall.

Okay well let me get some things out of the way LOL. I don't want or I want a naturally-aspirated car for this 95 I don't like the way the turbo stuff look I'm not a racer like that I just want a nice naturally-aspirated stock looking setup. Now I know it won't look stock but it will look stocker or more stock then that turbo stuff well I don't like all of that stuff to be honest with you. And I'm not worrying about making it cheap like I said I want to do it right the first time and be done with it. So I'm not worrying about trying to make a cheap motor I will do what I have to do to do it right and do it right the first time but I just want something reliable on the street without going too big and too excessive but at the same time I would like to maximize paying all that money for a dart block. If someone just reads this one post they may not see all the things I have said about the situation on finding a good stock block in my Builder being in Texas. So trying to make things convenient for both of us while at the same time trying to make the most sense

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

Okay well let me get some things out of the way LOL. I don't want or I want a naturally-aspirated car for this 95 I don't like the way the turbo stuff look I'm not a racer like that I just want a nice naturally-aspirated stock looking setup. Now I know it won't look stock but it will look stocker or more stock then that turbo stuff well I don't like all of that stuff to be honest with you. And I'm not worrying about making it cheap like I said I want to do it right the first time and be done with it. So I'm not worrying about trying to make a cheap motor I will do what I have to do to do it right and do it right the first time but I just want something reliable on the street without going too big and too excessive but at the same time I would like to maximize paying all that money for a dart block.

If someone just reads this one post they may not see all the things I have said about the situation on finding a good stock block in my Builder being in Texas

. So trying to make things convenient for both of us while at the same time trying to make the most sense

Dude, if someone just read that one post, they'll be as confused as I am now.

Slow down on the thumbs,...check the auto-correct,....read what you just posted,...it almost looks like:

 

[from6to8]

Dude, if someone just read that one post, they'll be as confused as I am now.

Slow down on the thumbs,...check the auto-correct,....read what you just posted,...it almost looks like:

that's why before someone replies, someone new to the thread, they might want to read at least the original post.

Anyone here trying to help or give advice needs to know that :

1. I am not trying to build a cheap setup. I'm not worried about throwing cheap parts and making it work.
2. i want to do it right the first time and be done with it.
3. The car will be just a nice weekend driving streetcar. No track, play around on the street AS i CHOOSE TO
4. When I open my hood I want to not see tubes everywhere and all over the place. I don't want a turbo setup and not even a supercharged setup on my 95. I will leave that for the terminator after I build this car. That's if I still want a Termi later on
5. I understand the decision might not be so easy for me to make as on one hand I kind of don't want to worry about throwing money around trying to find a GOOD stock block and on the other hand a Dart block for what I want out of the car is complete overkill.
6. So that's why I'm questioning maybe just going ahead and doing a 427 and getting some advice from guys who have done it, what did they learn that they would do different next time, ect. , ect. And ofcourse that's dependent on what they used the car for vs myself but still I'm sure they would be able to offer some insight on what I'd need to do suspension wise that I wasn't already going to do to the car anyway. All of those recommendations would have a bearing on what decision I make.
7. If I have to just get a Dart block and do a 400 W like originally planned and that would be better overall for what I want to do considering EVERYTHING involved, I guess I'll just have to go that route. But I'm a ways away as I have some home additions and even another garage that I have to do first. I'm hoping to have those things underway by summer at the latest and by years end or first of 2018 i can start on the build.

About to hit the road so might be later on in the day before I reply again

 

[General karthief]

You may want to check out some crate engines from ford or coast high proformance. That way you have a guarantee/ warranty, there are some great builders out there, you have rattled away here, no offense, talking about building a 427 and others all worried about get'n a good block, smart money says get a crate engine for what you say you want.

 

[from6to8]

You may want to check out some crate engines from ford or coast high proformance. That way you have a guarantee/ warranty, there are some great builders out there, you have rattled away here, no offense, talking about building a 427 and others all worried about get'n a good block, smart money says get a crate engine for what you say you want.

Is getting a crate block an option and using my or getting my own heads and intake and camshaft? I have not even asked my Builder yet and I know he's probably going to laugh at what I could buy as a crate engine and what he could build LOL. But I could be wrong but I'm just guessing he is going to say what he will build will run circles around that but I will ask him and get back

 

[General karthief]

If your builder wants to boast about running circles around a crate engine I want to know what he is running, what it is in and how long he has been beating on it with no reliability problems.
Thats a lot of confidence with even more unknowns, I'm not say'n he can't build a reliable engine I say'n thats a bold and unprofessional statement.
It's your money, if it were my money, and I was as worried about the reliability of a stock block as you are, I'd get a crate engine, thats all I'm say'n

 

[from6to8]

If your builder wants to boast about running circles around a crate engine I want to know what he is running, what it is in and how long he has been beating on it with no reliability problems.
Thats a lot of confidence with even more unknowns, I'm not say'n he can't build a reliable engine I say'n thats a bold and unprofessional statement.
It's your money, if it were my money, and I was as worried about the reliability of a stock block as you are, I'd get a crate engine, thats all I'm say'n

That wasn't him saying that that was me LOL. And he basically said a lot of those crate engines are made with the cheapest Chinese parts available and then he could build the engine 4 about 50 more horsepower minimum and half of what I would pay for a crate engine. I will ask him about the rat reliability Factor. And he has always told me even building what he is going to build definitely he won't recommended buying cheap Chinese parts and I agree on that do it right the first time and be done with it.

And I'm not even saying I won't buy a crate engine because I will compare apples to apples across the board

Would you agree that building an engine via Big Bore worth versus stroke is the way to go?

 

[General karthief]

You seen to keep asking questions about building an engine, this verses that, have you not decided since Jan. 16? You were asking back then, or is this a new project your debating about?
You said you have a builder, why not have him build you an engine, if you converse with him as much as you implied a year ago he should know your needs.
Not that I/we don't want to help you and would welcome your imput here, we cannot makeup your mind for you.

 

[from6to8]

You seen to keep asking questions about building an engine, this verses that, have you not decided since Jan. 16? You were asking back then, or is this a new project your debating about?
You said you have a builder, why not have him build you an engine, if you converse with him as much as you implied a year ago he should know your needs.
Not that I/we don't want to help you and would welcome your imput here, we cannot makeup your mind for you.

I always make myself clear but I don't mind repeating lol. The holdup basically is that I want to get my other garage up so that when I start taking parts off, tearing it down i will have plenty of space. My current garage will not do as I have the wrecked 95 as well as the one I bought march of 16. When that gets started and done, hopefully sometime before summer at least started, then I will begin on the car. Right now it's the prelimary take notes, ask questions, ect. Yes I'm confident with him building the engine and he has beeeennnnn ready lol. He has told me about a stock block vs a Dart which is the reason for this thread just to hear others opinions. He used to go to the forums and he echoed that , and not to bash anyone, but a lot of people on the forums don't know a lot of what they are talking about when it comes to the specifics of some of the things he specializes in. Now I will never call anyone incompetent or anything like that, I'm the most fair minded individual anyone will ever meet. I value everyone's opinion and folks who take the time out to reply and voice an opinion.
Ultimately I will have to make my mind up and put everything in a vacuum and decide. Now ofcourse a lot of you guys will or may say he might not know what the heck he is talking about lol and that's fine, I'm not taking sides but I feel comfortable with him after talking to him and him doing cam work, and helping me out with my broken spring situation in 15. Helped me do things I have never done before to the car via texting some and talking, and he had his own work to do as well so I appreciated that. So yes I have some time to soak everything in, get the varying opionions and then decide. So once again I appreciate everyone's opinion. I will reply more in detail later on a few more things I'd like to share.

I , for the 400W, have my list together, the main thing was which block to use which was the reason for this thread. I have a complete list to do a nice build but lately, and it sort of makes sense, was if buying a dart block, why not go bigger.......
I will update as to his opinion on those things when I get back from family time

 

[from6to8]

I think I've made up my mind to just go dart and set up my engine via big bore as originally planned. A 427 would probably be too much so the 400W it is. Hope to give him the ok to start by summer