Dies when put into gear

[bnickel]

At the back of the carb.

In this pic (not my carb, I stole the pic off of ebay), where that nut looking thing is sticking out of the middle of the back; mine has a barbed thing there that a hose can connect to. We originally had a hose running from there to the valve cover cap, but now we have it capped off.
View attachment 385354

-Chelle

that port is an alternate PCV port. if it was connected to the breather cap you had a definite vacuum leak from there.

i would still bump the timing up a few more degrees to about 12-14 and also check the condition of the gas tank and definitely replace all the rubber lines. there should be one at the tank that connects to the steel line under the car and one under the driver side front floor support (frame rail) and one connecting the metal line to teh fuel filter. from the pump to the carb whatever rubber lines are there need to replaced as well.

i'd drive it for a few days before you do anything else just so you don't add to the problem in case it still exists.

 

[t_chelle16]

My next major project (after getting this problem solved will be rebuilding the tranny in Sadie and swapping them out. So when I have it up on the lift for that, it probably would be a really good time to replace the rubber lines.

pump to the carb whatever rubber lines are there need to replaced as well.

That one I actually have already replaced as well as the metal portion there too.

-Chelle

 

[2nd Mustang]

To borrow a line, "Don't you just love it when a plan comes together?"

Happy wrenching!

 

[Capt Dan]

At the back of the carb.

In this pic (not my carb, I stole the pic off of ebay), where that nut looking thing is sticking out of the middle of the back; mine has a barbed thing there that a hose can connect to. We originally had a hose running from there to the valve cover cap, but now we have it capped off.
View attachment 385310

-Chelle

On my '66, that port is where the vaccuum line for the Automatic transmission kickdown is connected. May need to check to see if that is leaking also.

I assume it should be blocked off on a manual trans car or if it has a cable kickdown.

Once I got mine adjusted correctly there was only a small drop in RPM from park to in gear. So until it shifts correctly you still have something out of adjustment or leaking.

 

[t_chelle16]

Ugh.

Took it this morning to work (had to because dad took mom's jeep). Acted like it wanted to die when I put it in gear (went from 1000 rpm in park to around 600 in reverse), but didn't actually die. Got to the entrance ramp for the highway (about a mile from my house) started accelerating and it sputtered for a few seconds, but after that it did okay. Driving through the parking lot at work (about 11 miles from my house), I had to kind of ride the break to keep it from getting away from me. Pulled in the parking space and put it in park and it was idling at around 1200 rpm, dropped it back into gear and it was around 800. Shut it off and went into work.

Fast forward 8 1/2 hours.

Went out, tried to start it up, wouldn't start. Turned over for a second, then just the starter clicking. Called my parents, tried to jump it, got it running, put it into gear, it died. Started it again, put it into gear, tried to die, gave it gas, started going forward a few feet, died again. Wouldn't start again. Tried to jump it again, wouldn't start. Looked things over and found one of the studs on the alternator that wiggles. Bad alternator. Go to Autozone, get a new alternator, try to replace it in the parking lot, but the only tools I had on me were the crappy ones that came with my car emergency kit (they're just about 1/2 a step above kids plastic tool toys).

So we've left the car at work for now. Dad will drive me in tomorrow and swap the alternators out then. After that, if it's still doing the dieing in gear thing, I'm just going to take it to the Nissan dealership (we're friends with everyone there) and let them find the problem for me because I'm tired of messing with it.

-Chelle

 

[2nd Mustang]

Sorry to hear of your problems, again. It really does sound like a vacuum problem.

Having a good vacuum reading at idle really doesn't tell the whole story of an engine's condition. I tried two used Holleys and both had the same vacuum readings at idle, but both had major problems off idle. I rebuilt both of them with rebuild kits and that didn't help. I finally bit the bullet and bought a brand new Holley 600 for about $250 from Kraqgen. It's been almost two years now and only adjusted the idle mixture screws once on initial installation and haven't had to touch it yet.

Good luck.

 

[t_chelle16]

They got the alternator swapped out this morning and after work it started okay, but it's still dieing.

So dad started spraying carb cleaner around and it does look like there's a leak around the intake so I'm going to find another intake, but I'm not at all convinced that that's what's causing the problem. This is the 2nd intake I've had on there and the 3rd set of intake gaskets. I think the odds of it still being the intake through all that are pretty darn slim.

And I would try buying a brand new carb, but I would like to switch it over to fuel injection sometime within the next couple of years and I don't want to spend $300 on a new carb that I'm only going to need for a couple of years. And I would love to just swap it over to fuel injection now, but I can't afford the kit right now.

And to top it all off, the engine in Dad's jeep is pretty much shot (it hasn't had oil pressure for about 3 years now and now it's barely running). So we have 2 people working full time with overlapping shifts and only one decent running vehicle.

-Chelle

 

[rbohm]

rather than find another intake, or put in another set of gaskets, first try torquing the intake to 30ft/lbs. also start the torque sequence by torquing the corners first in a criss-cross pattern, then switch to the stock ford pattern. i have done this many times and never had a leak.

 

[t_chelle16]

I've already torqued them (to whatever the shop manual said - can't remember off the top of my head) in the criss cross pattern and also retorqued them after breaking in the engine.

And actually I've come up with a new plan. There's only 5 things on that engine that I didn't replace when I swapped the engine: the intake, the carb, the fuel pump, the power steering pump (which I doubt can cause this problem), and the distributor (again, doubt it's causing this problem). So it HAS to be either the intake, carb, or fuel pump. The new plan is to replace those 3 things (I'm going to forget about converting to fuel injection, because I plan on buying a new car to use as a daily driver sometime before the end of the year so as long as I can get rid of the dieing problem and get it running good, I really don't need fuel injection). And if the problem is still there, then the car is cursed and I'll sell it on eBay as a cursed/haunted car and make a fortune.

-Chelle

 

[bnickel]

chelle, i'd replace the gas tank while you're at it, it's less than 100 bucks from most places and if the tank is as rusty as i suspect it is that could very well be the majority of your problem. you don't even need to replace the fuel sending unit if yours works right, but do replace the filter sock on the end of the pickup.

 

[t_chelle16]

I have a full tank of gas so I'm hesitant to replace the tank right now. Is there some particular reason (other than the car being 40 years old) that you think the tank is so rusty?

-Chelle

 

[bnickel]

well my car is almost completely rust free, just had some in the right rear 1/4 and the original tank was full of rust. knowing the climate in the area where your car is from and the amount of rust in the rest of the car AND teh problems you're having i'm betting the tank is pretty rusty.

in fact, i'd be willing to bet that most of the original gas tanks here on SN have a lot more rust than the owners suspect

 

[other_shoe]

Ignition coil?

Many years ago I had a problem that sounds similar. It came and went. I'd perform carb or timing voodoo and then a few days later it would be back. I finally replaced the ignition coil after a buddy of mine persuasiely argued that they can fail incrementally. That seemed to solve the problem, but I can't be sure since a bearing noise a week later finally spurred me to get the engine rebuilt.

 

[Platonic Solid]

I have a full tank of gas so I'm hesitant to replace the tank right now. Is there some particular reason (other than the car being 40 years old) that you think the tank is so rusty?

-Chelle

Another possibility: The tank might be fine and you may have bad gas. When gas goes bad it has these small clear balls that sink to the bottom and move around like mercury. The car will idle just fine as these balls remain in the tank, fuel line and fuel pump. When the car is moved around and fuel pressure is increased they get sucked into and clog the filter causing it to run rough then die. When not running, the lack of fuel pressure causes them to run back down to the lowest point in the fuel line (or fuel pump), thus the car will start just fine again in a few minutes. The only solution is to drain or replace the tank and flush the fuel lines.

 

[rbohm]

I've already torqued them (to whatever the shop manual said - can't remember off the top of my head) in the criss cross pattern and also retorqued them after breaking in the engine.
-Chelle

right, you used the factory torque setting, 25ft/lbs, and you used the factory torque pattern, criss-cross inside-out. if you read a factory shop manual, you will find that even ford recommends that if you still have a vacuum leak after retorquing the intake after running it, then you torque the bolts to 30ft/lbs. as for the torque pattern, edelbrock changes the factory ford pattern slightly by having you torque the outer corner bolts first, THEN go to the factory ford pattern. what happens with the standard ford pattern is that the inner bolts loosen up after the corner bolts are tightened up, even during retorquing. thus if you tighten the corner bolts first, you get more even pressure on the intake gasket across the entire gasket surface.

 

[Platonic Solid]

You can test the bad gas theory by clamping and disconnecting the hose from the fuel line near the tank. Replace the fuel filter and flush the fuel line and pump. Then run a hose from the fuel line (near the gas tank) to a fresh can of gas. Start car and rev engine to see if problem persists.

 

[t_chelle16]

When not running, the lack of fuel pressure causes them to run back down to the lowest point in the fuel line (or fuel pump), thus the car will start just fine again in a few minutes. The only solution is to drain or replace the tank and flush the fuel lines.

It's not a problem of the car dieing and not starting again. It always starts up immediately w/o any problems. It just dies when I put it in gear.

-Chelle

 

[t_chelle16]

right, you used the factory torque setting, 25ft/lbs, and you used the factory torque pattern, criss-cross inside-out. if you read a factory shop manual, you will find that even ford recommends that if you still have a vacuum leak after retorquing the intake after running it, then you torque the bolts to 30ft/lbs. as for the torque pattern, edelbrock changes the factory ford pattern slightly by having you torque the outer corner bolts first, THEN go to the factory ford pattern. what happens with the standard ford pattern is that the inner bolts loosen up after the corner bolts are tightened up, even during retorquing. thus if you tighten the corner bolts first, you get more even pressure on the intake gasket across the entire gasket surface.

Actually, I'm not sure that I followed the factory torque sequence exactly. It's actually more of a spiral that I tend to do, starting in the middle and working my way out to the ends. But still, wouldn't going back over and rechecking the torque about 3 times take care of the bolts loosening up? What I did was get them all finger tight, torque them to the 25 ft/lbs, go through and retorque them, then retorque them again. Then I went through and retorqued them again after the engine had run a while. I'll go ahead and try torqueing them to 30, but I'm not too hopeful that that's going to solve the problem.

-Chelle

 

[rbohm]

Actually, I'm not sure that I followed the factory torque sequence exactly. It's actually more of a spiral that I tend to do, starting in the middle and working my way out to the ends. But still, wouldn't going back over and rechecking the torque about 3 times take care of the bolts loosening up? What I did was get them all finger tight, torque them to the 25 ft/lbs, go through and retorque them, then retorque them again. Then I went through and retorqued them again after the engine had run a while. I'll go ahead and try torqueing them to 30, but I'm not too hopeful that that's going to solve the problem.

-Chelle

retorquing doesnt always get the inner bolts tightened properly. remember that the ford intake is rather long for its width, and doesnt have the support at the ends that other engines do, and thus tends to bow in the center. that bowing causes vacuum leaks. you eliminate that bowing tendency by torquing the corners first, then going inside-out.

 

[2nd Mustang]

More confusion:

If you sprayed carb cleaner near the intake, did some of it get on the carb base? It doesn't take much carb cleaner to stall the engine. A lot of high mileage carbs are worn around the throttle shaft through the base of the carb which can affect vacuum.

If I remember correctly, you had stated that you could bump up the idle speed and it wouldn't die when you put it in gear. That to me would be the sign of a vacuum leak.

During my "not so well off" years, what worked for me was to buy cars (some were not cool at all) that cost about a $1000 and were easy to repair and use them as daily drivers. If they lasted more than a year, I got my money's worth.

Good luck.