Dino vs Synthetic Oil

[Joes95GT]

It's all opinion.

I can agree with that. I have too many of them for my own good, too.

Joe

 

[Silver85TC]

also, i know what you meant above, but i think it was phrased ambiguously. synthetic oil seldom "creates" leaks, as was posted. it does 'enlighten' you to their whereabouts. i think choosing the use of the word "create" was poor. if i go hiking and fall and my wounds are covered in dirt, then i go home and take a shower, the water that reveals my cuts did not create them. it only showed me them.
i would have said 'unmask' or something along that line - i know i'm nitpicking semantics but syn oil creating leaks is a huge misnomer and i hate for someone to get the wrong impression if not reading carefully (like me. ).

with much of the synthetic stuff, there is no one answer; it is application specific. to that end, i say run whatever floats your boat.

You're right. It depends on your definition of "creates". After re-reading it, "Creates" probably isn't the right word in this case. None the less. Leaks do have a tendancy to appear after switching to synthetics on a higher mileage motor.

Ref "thinness" of the synthetic oil. I'm not sure where you got that description as technically correct. The more correct term to use would be "viscosity". A "thin" oil has low viscosity. Therefore, synthetic oils have the abilty to maintain low viscosity at extremely cold temperatures, while not breaking down at high temps. These viscosity levels are very stable in synthetics compared to regular mineral oils.

Regardless, I think we're both talking the same thing, just describing it differently.

Cheers

Edit;
That's why I enjoy these threads.....you learn as you go. Read the following quote about low temperature performance of synthetic oils;

The Low Temperature Advantage

Why is synthetic engine oil better at low temperatures? Many people over the years have incorrectly assumed that synthetic engine oils must be thinner (lower viscosity) to provide this enhanced performance at very low temperatures. They are dead wrong. Remember from Engine Oils 101 that oils are characterized by their SAE viscosity. A 5W-30 synthetic oil has the same viscosity as a 5W-30 conventional. The reason synthetic oils flow better at low temperatures is because they have no wax molecules in the base oil. Conventional oils on the other hand are basically cleaned up crude oil which has a considerable amount of wax. If you have ever bought paraffin wax or candle wax at the store, it most likely came from the same refinery where conventional base oil was produced. One of the steps to produce conventional oil is to remove the waxy molecules. Unfortunately, it is difficult and expensive to remove every last bit of wax from the oil, so some wax is always present in the finished product.

Since wax will form a crystalline structure at very low temperatures, conventional base oil will actually solidify at about 0°F. An additive called pour point depressant will help lower the pour point down to around –30°F in the finished conventional product. However, these waxy molecules can contribute to reduced pumping capability, even at temperatures above the pour point.

Since synthetic base oil has no wax molecules, there is no opportunity for wax crystallization. Synthetic engine oils generally have extremely low pour points down to –65°F. This is due to the fact that synthetic base oils are made up of essentially one type of molecule. It is a pure substance designed to have excellent flow characteristics.

Good low temperature flow is a huge advantage for engine protection. Most engine wear can occur during the short period when the engine has started and is running but the oil has not come up to operating pressure. Synthetic oils can shorten this period of time and help protect against this type of wear. Additionally, if you live in a very cold climate, where the temperature regularly drops below 0°F, synthetic engine oil can be a vital component to allow engine starting and extending the life of your engine.

That quote is from this website;
http://www.synthetic-engine-oils.com/synthetic-vs-mineral.htm

Cheers

 

[Silver85TC]

I can agree with that. I have too many of them for my own good, too.

Joe

Actually its not. There have been many well documented studies proving the value of synthetics over regular oil. Including older engines.

Do your own search of the www and you'll see what I mean.

Cheers

 

[Silver85TC]

Another site with exellent info for those of you who aren't tired of reading about motor oil yet!
http://www.vtr.org/maintain/oil-overview.html

Cheers

 

[HISSIN50]

this horse on this one is long gone. i think we are arguing roughly the same end point from different vantage points.

Silver, have you seen testing done on the pour speed of a given weight of dino oil vs the same weight of a PAO synthetic? they do flow at different rates. SAE protocol is based on conventional oil. because something can protect like a conventional oil does not mean it is the same consistancy.

viscosity is a measure of properties; that is different than the actual thickness or thinness of the product itself (as it pours).

the only ammendment i would make to the point about synthetic in old motors as a rule. Silver85TC, you said:

"Leaks do have a tendancy to appear after switching to synthetics on a higher mileage motor."

of course if one has all new seals and gaskets in said motor, age of the motor does not matter. again, nitpicking and we all know what you mean. i think it is worth mentioning.

I dont know about you guys, but i enjoy these threads too. i may not agree but i appreciate everyones' perspectives. i hope i have not offended anyone - this is just good debate.

i agree with Joe - no one is really wrong. we all have different values and desires of our oil and different vantage points.

to all.

 

[Joes95GT]

Actually its not. There have been many well documented studies proving the value of synthetics over regular oil. Including older engines.

Do your own search of the www and you'll see what I mean.

Cheers

Actually, there has never been a comprehensive study or publishing of a study that shows that one oil is superior to another oil in all facets of a specific topic. Since we talked about seals, I'll use that the topic of the point I'm trying to prove.

Find me a study that compares the differences in the seals after switching between both types of oils after x-amount of miles in a stock 4-cylinder Honda motor, a GNX motor with 20 pounds of boost running through it, a slightly modified 5.0 and a Cummins diesel. Find me all of that where they compare the seals in the motor after running the motors at daily driver type speeds ( <3000 RPM ) and another study where they run the motors at peak torque levels for 3000 miles (or 1 oil change interval) and compare.

See what I mean?

I'll bet you I could probably rig up a study where the conventional Pep Boys 5W30 will be proven superior to fully synthetic Mobil1. Who would believe it though?

Joe

 

[Silver85TC]

Actually, there has never been a comprehensive study or publishing of a study that shows that one oil is superior to another oil in all facets of a specific topic. Since we talked about seals, I'll use that the topic of the point I'm trying to prove.

Find me a study that compares the differences in the seals after switching between both types of oils after x-amount of miles in a stock 4-cylinder Honda motor, a GNX motor with 20 pounds of boost running through it, a slightly modified 5.0 and a Cummins diesel. Find me all of that where they compare the seals in the motor after running the motors at daily driver type speeds ( <3000 RPM ) and another study where they run the motors at peak torque levels for 3000 miles (or 1 oil change interval) and compare.

See what I mean?

I'll bet you I could probably rig up a study where the conventional Pep Boys 5W30 will be proven superior to fully synthetic Mobil1. Who would believe it though?

Joe

I highly doubt you could make a study that shows Pep boys 5w30 is better than Mobil1. In fact, I would be willing to bet you on that one.

Comparing seals is ridiculous. While you're at it, why don't you try and find a study showing which valve cover gasket last longer when using synthetic vs mineral oil. Changing a seal is a he!! of alot cheaper than rebuilding the engine. I would rather change a couple of seals then have to replace the main bearings.

All of the websites/articles/studies you can find that do any sort of comparison at all between synthetic and mineral oil always say that synthetic is the better all round oil. The aviation industry pretty much uses exclusively synthetic oils. That says something right there.
I've already posted a couple of websites supporting my position. I could post hundreds more if I chose to.

Your choice if you want to ignore the overwhelming amount of evidence out there.

 

[Silver85TC]

this horse on this one is long gone. i think we are arguing roughly the same end point from different vantage points.

Silver, have you seen testing done on the pour speed of a given weight of dino oil vs the same weight of a PAO synthetic? they do flow at different rates. SAE protocol is based on conventional oil. because something can protect like a conventional oil does not mean it is the same consistancy.

viscosity is a measure of properties; that is different than the actual thickness or thinness of the product itself (as it pours).

the only ammendment i would make to the point about synthetic in old motors as a rule. Silver85TC, you said:

"Leaks do have a tendancy to appear after switching to synthetics on a higher mileage motor."

of course if one has all new seals and gaskets in said motor, age of the motor does not matter. again, nitpicking and we all know what you mean. i think it is worth mentioning.

I dont know about you guys, but i enjoy these threads too. i may not agree but i appreciate everyones' perspectives. i hope i have not offended anyone - this is just good debate.

i agree with Joe - no one is really wrong. we all have different values and desires of our oil and different vantage points.

to all.

Now you're just being difficult!

Ref the pour point chart.....you mean like this right;
http://www.lubes-n-filters.com/newsletters/compare-motor-oils.html
http://www.lubes-n-filters.com/newsletters/graphics/pourpoint_lrg.gif

Ref the leaks.........If an old car had a newer rebuilt engine in it, then switching to synthetics would not be a problem right?

So, in summary, I agree that I disagree with you!

You're right about the end point. Synthetics are better!

 

[Joes95GT]

I highly doubt you could make a study that shows Pep boys 5w30 is better than Mobil1. In fact, I would be willing to bet you on that one.

I don't think you understood what I meant. Any experiment comparing two of anything can be skewed in a way that one oil has a distinct advantage over the other. Just last weekend my Dad and I tore apart a 350 with a 0.040 overbore. It had about 100,000 miles on the motor and the owner of the last 25 years used conventional Pennzoil motor oil. The bearings (rods, mains, and thrust) looked so good that they could have almost been reused. That's real world results, which are far more important (to me anyway) than anything produced in a labratory. Interpret that anyway you like...

Comparing seals is ridiculous. While you're at it, why don't you try and find a study showing which valve cover gasket last longer when using synthetic vs mineral oil. Changing a seal is a he!! of alot cheaper than rebuilding the engine. I would rather change a couple of seals then have to replace the main bearings.

You missed the point again. You run what kind of motor oil is needed for your application - period. If you wipe out your main bearings, the thing you can blame on the oil is the lack thereof. You'll need to look elsewhere if the dipstick is reading full.

The aviation industry pretty much uses exclusively synthetic oils. That says something right there.

Oh, does it? So if NASCAR does something, you do too? You left yourself open on that one...

I've already posted a couple of websites supporting my position. I could post hundreds more if I chose to.

Na, no need to. I know what kind of oil works for me. I just don't fall into the "synthetics are way better" myth. That, simply, is just not true for everyone - end of discussion.

Joe

 

[Silver85TC]

I don't think you understood what I meant. Any experiment comparing two of anything can be skewed in a way that one oil has a distinct advantage over the other. Just last weekend my Dad and I tore apart a 350 with a 0.040 overbore. It had about 100,000 miles on the motor and the owner of the last 25 years used conventional Pennzoil motor oil. The bearings (rods, mains, and thrust) looked so good that they could have almost been reused. That's real world results, which are far more important (to me anyway) than anything produced in a labratory. Interpret that anyway you like...You missed the point again. You run what kind of motor oil is needed for your application - period. If you wipe out your main bearings, the thing you can blame on the oil is the lack thereof. You'll need to look elsewhere if the dipstick is reading full.
Oh, does it? So if NASCAR does something, you do too? You left yourself open on that one...
Na, no need to. I know what kind of oil works for me. I just don't fall into the "synthetics are way better" myth. That, simply, is just not true for everyone - end of discussion.

Joe

Sorry to the others reading this thread if I sound frustrated by this person. I find it difficult to believe that someone ignores the facts when they are presented plainly to them.

Show me one study/experiment/aritcle that says regular mineral oil is better than synthetic oil in ANY way! (engine breakin period excluded...........regular mineral oil is required during this period. This is due to the fact that synthetic oil's lubricating qualities are TOO good, therefore the engine wouldn't be broken-in properly)

The proven FACTS that are out there if you chose to see them are this.
1. Synthetic oils flow MUCH better at cold temps.
2. A high percentage of engine wear occurs at cold start. Since Synthetics flow better at cold start, engine wear WILL be much reduced over a specific period of time when compared to an engine using regular mineral oil.
3. Synthetic oils don't break down nearly as quickly at high temps as regular mineral oils. This will further reduce the amount of wear a typical engine will experience.

Those facts are undisputable to anyone who is able to do any amount of research.

My point about the engine bearing is that wear occurs on the bearings over time. When using synthetic oils, the bearings will experience much less wear than if mineral oil was used. You obviously missed that point completely.

Ref Aviation/Nascar. Most Nascar teams use synthetic oil. Why wouldn't I want to use a product that's been proven the best a hundred different ways?

In summary, with regular oil changes, mineral oil will obviously protect your engine for a couple of hundered thousand miles. Does everyone NEED to use synthetic oil? Of course not. HOWEVER, if you want superior lubrication that will allow the engine to go up to twice that mileage before needing a rebuild, then go with synthetic.

One more thing, if you chose to ignore the overwhelming amount of evidence supporting the allround superiorty of synthetic oil, then I have a few more things to say that you might not believe.
1) Fuel injection is better than carburation.
2) Seatbelts save lives.
3) Man flew to the moon.
4) Man flew faster than the speed of sound.
5) The Earth is not flat.
6) The Earth rotates around the sun.

Have fun living in your bubble!

Good day to you!

 

[Joes95GT]

Sorry to the others reading this thread if I sound frustrated by this person. I find it difficult to believe that someone ignores the facts when they are presented plainly to them.

Sure, in some cases facts can be presented plainly, but not convincingly. I never said flat out "regular oil is better than synthetic." I'm not that stupid.

Show me one study/experiment/aritcle that says regular mineral oil is better than synthetic oil in ANY way!

Read the response above. I just don't believe they are "the best" for every situation.

1. Synthetic oils flow MUCH better at cold temps.

I don't drive my car between September and April, so that has no effect on me.

2. A high percentage of engine wear occurs at cold start. Since Synthetics flow better at cold start, engine wear WILL be much reduced over a specific period of time when compared to an engine using regular mineral oil.

It will be so long since I've started my car that there is no oil in the top end. My car is kept in a climate controlled 70* garage. This does not affect me either.

3. Synthetic oils don't break down nearly as quickly at high temps as regular mineral oils. This will further reduce the amount of wear a typical engine will experience.

True, but subjective, at best. What is "high temperature"?

Those are facts are undisputable to anyone who is able to do any amount of research.

Or those who look beyond what's good for a labratory and look at what's good for themselves.

My point about the engine bearing is that wear occurs on the bearings over time. When using synthetic oils, the bearings will experience much less wear than if mineral oil was used. You obviously missed that point completely.

You mean to tell me that if an engine has all the proper and recommended clearances on all the bearings, synthetic oil will reduce wear on bearings? I do believe you but this is starting to get hypothetical. This again is not real world. I have (limited) real world experience that says when an engine is built properly and oil is changed regularly on or before the oil's "lifespan," bearing wear will be negligible.

In summary, with regular oil changes, mineral oil will obviously protect your engine for a couple of hundered thousand miles. If you want supereior lubrication that will allow the engine to go twice that mileage before needing a rebuild, then go with synthetic.

There is absolutely no way that is proveable. No two engines are exactly the same. And yes, that does make a difference.

Where did the insults come from? I'm just debating. I guess I'm getting under your skin? Cool... You don't have to respond with subtle childish inferences that I'm stupid. I have no clue what you do, or what kind of education you have/are receiving and I'm sure we don't need to go there.

Good day to you!

Yeah you too.

Joe

 

[Silver85TC]

I never said flat out "regular oil is better than synthetic." I'm not that stupid.Read the response above. I just don't believe they are "the best" for every situation.

Yes you did.

I'll bet you I could probably rig up a study where the conventional Pep Boys 5W30 will be proven superior to fully synthetic Mobil1.

You mean to tell me that if an engine has all the proper and recommended clearances on all the bearings, synthetic oil will reduce wear on bearings? I do believe you but this is starting to get hypothetical. This again is not real world. I have (limited) real world experience that says when an engine is built properly and oil is changed regularly on or before the oil's "lifespan," bearing wear will be negligible.

YES! That's what reducing wear engine wear means!!!! To repeat myself for the umpteenth time, the majority of engine wear occurs on the first cold start of the day.

Where did the insults come from? I'm just debating. I guess I'm getting under your skin? Cool... You don't have to respond with subtle childish inferences that I'm stupid. I have no clue what you do, or what kind of education you have/are receiving and I'm sure we don't need to go there.
Yeah you too.

Joe

That's rich, you calling me childish! I wouldn't call what you're doing "debating". More like dismissing logical arguments backed up with multiple references, and responding with completely ridiculous statements

You are obviously the type of person who is extremely stubborn and isn't going to believe anything presented to them. All the information is out there. You just have to have enough ambition to look for yourself.
I have never said everyone NEEDS to use synthetic oil. What I am saying is that if you want the best possible lubrication and wear protection for your engine, then synthetic oil is the only way to go. That fact is undisputable.....proven from multiple references.

The only reason I am continuing to respond to you is to ensure that people are not misinformed about the superior qualities of synthetic oil (along with slightly increased gas mileage and slight dyno proven performance gains). Nothing annoys me more than people giving there own opinion as gospel when they have done NO research. I have given numerous references to support my posts. I encourage everyone to do their own research, and come to their own conclusions.

 

[Joes95GT]

Yes you did.

I'll bet you I could probably rig up a study where the conventional Pep Boys 5W30 will be proven superior to fully synthetic Mobil1.

Where in that quote did I say "conventional oil is better than synthetic"? LOL.

In that post I was saying that you can't believe all "tests" that are performed in a labratory. That's like believing in dyno numbers.

You are obviously the type of person who is extremely stubborn and isn't going to believe anything presented to them.

You're right for the most part; I wouldn't say "anything" though.

I have never said everyone NEEDS to use synthetic oil. What I am saying is that if you want the best possible lubrication and wear protection for your engine, then synthetic oil is the only way to go. That fact is undisputable.....proven from multiple references.

Cool...

The only reason I am continuing to respond to you is to ensure that people are not misinformed about the superior qualities of synthetic oil. Nothing annoys me more than people giving there own opinion as gospel when they have done NO research. I have given numerous references to support my posts. I encourage everyone to do there own research, and come to their own conclusions.

I have never said that anything I've said is "right". Infact, I believe I've said that there is no "right" when it comes to oil selection. I'm just playing the devil's advocate. By your own admission, I have "annoyed" you, so I'm doing my job . Between us, we're presenting both sides of the story. Cool by me!

My primary reason for not liking synthetic oil is the extented period of time you can go without changing your oil: Say for instance I have a small piece of crud come off the back of my exhaust valve and it gets jammed into a lifter, at, say, 50 miles after the oil has been changed. Over time, more crud gets caught on this piece after 7000 miles due to the oil filter becoming less efficient. What's to blame if that lifter collapses?

Very hypothetical? Yes. Possible? Sure.

Educate me. That is my personal belief about using synthetic oil. Tell me where my thinking is flawed.

Joe

 

[Silver85TC]

Where in that quote did I say "conventional oil is better than synthetic"? LOL.

In that post I was saying that you can't believe all "tests" that are performed in a labratory. That's like believing in dyno numbers.You're right for the most part; I wouldn't say "anything" though.Cool...

I have never said that anything I've said is "right". Infact, I believe I've said that there is no "right" when it comes to oil selection. I'm just playing the devil's advocate. By your own admission, I have "annoyed" you, so I'm doing my job . Between us, we're presenting both sides of the story. Cool by me!

My primary reason for not liking synthetic oil is the extented period of time you can go without changing your oil: Say for instance I have a small piece of crud come off the back of my exhaust valve and it gets jammed into a lifter, at, say, 50 miles after the oil has been changed. Over time, more crud gets caught on this piece after 7000 miles due to the oil filter becoming less efficient. What's to blame if that lifter collapses?

Very hypothetical? Yes. Possible? Sure.

Educate me. That is my personal belief about using synthetic oil. Tell me where my thinking is flawed.

Joe

AHHHHHH. Now your jumping to conclusions. I've never stated that one should not change synthetic oil at regular 3000 mile intervals. As far as I know, Amsoil is the only product that says you can go more than the manufacturer's recommended interval.

Cheers

 

[Joes95GT]

AHHHHHH. Now your jumping to conclusions. I've never stated that one should not change synthetic oil at regular 3000 mile intervals. As far as I know, Amsoil is the only product that says you can go more than the manufacturer's recommended interval.

Cheers

Hmmm. I'm not calling you wrong, but I was under the assumption that synthetics advertised that they can go longer inbetween oil changes? WTF! See, I'm not always right.

Joe

 

[Silver85TC]

Hmmm. I'm not calling you wrong, but I was under the assumption that synthetics advertised that they can go longer inbetween oil changes? WTF! See, I'm not always right.

Joe

I do recall reading similar claims.......can't remember where. Anything that I've read recently though, states you should stick with the manufacturer's recommended intervals. (which can be 5000 miles or more on some vehicles!)

 

[ddasilva99]

What oil does the 5.0L 95' Mustang use?
10W30?

And what you do recommend for winter/summer oil?

 

[Trick95]

I run good old regular oil. I tried synthetics and I burnt it and it managed to leak a little more. It's expensive, I'd rather get 50,000 less miles from the motor than spend $40ish+ for an oil change each time. To each his own though.