can you check top be sure your converter is locking up?
something is definately amiss...........
something is definately amiss...........
Disappointment at the dyno: 227 rwhp with afr165's and custom cam
- Thread starter crazypete
- Start date
I just finished my engine build with my afr 165 heads,
at first i used a stock cam with a stock shortblock,
and then I went to a F303 hotcam..
I too was told by some people, that stock Push rods would work, However I double checked them with my adj pushrod just like AFR told me to do, , and I was short like 3-4 tenths of an inch , I went from ( If I remember right) 6.4in to like 6.7 inch push rod.... BUT do not go by what I say check your own..dont fight it, its a 10 dollar PR checker and a 30 dollar dial indicator.
I dont understand how a pro builder ( now I dont know the guy at all) could say that stock pushrods will work , when there is always the slightest chance that the dimensions will be changed, ...either by deck height or whatever..
I also would have to agree that tuning to 12 deg advance to accomidate the 89 octane is killing your power..and I dont know how many times people get mixed up on just how octane works...
Octane makes the combustion happen slower( were talking millisecs here) -true
the slower combustion rate is the cause for exhausting raw fuel --False
Octance affects gas mph -- False
Octane controlls how quickly the ignition point propigates to the entire charge, and how low the temp of the ignition has to be. Octane does not make power, it helps other parts make power. It allows you to advance your timing more, or run a higher compression so that the higher heat then is generated from say hot spots in the combustion chamber or higher compression will not ignite the gasoline before the spark comes. (ie pre-ignition)...In short the higher octane allow the engine to run in a more radical form. and makes the gas more stable...
This is why you read about race cars having a different tune for different octane they are using..
To quote the "how sutff works book"
"The octane rating of gasoline tells you how much the fuel can be compressed before it spontaneously ignites"
anyone please feel free to correct any of my logic.
-geoffrey
at first i used a stock cam with a stock shortblock,
and then I went to a F303 hotcam..
I too was told by some people, that stock Push rods would work, However I double checked them with my adj pushrod just like AFR told me to do, , and I was short like 3-4 tenths of an inch , I went from ( If I remember right) 6.4in to like 6.7 inch push rod.... BUT do not go by what I say check your own..dont fight it, its a 10 dollar PR checker and a 30 dollar dial indicator.
I dont understand how a pro builder ( now I dont know the guy at all) could say that stock pushrods will work , when there is always the slightest chance that the dimensions will be changed, ...either by deck height or whatever..
I also would have to agree that tuning to 12 deg advance to accomidate the 89 octane is killing your power..and I dont know how many times people get mixed up on just how octane works...
Octane makes the combustion happen slower( were talking millisecs here) -true
the slower combustion rate is the cause for exhausting raw fuel --False
Octance affects gas mph -- False
Octane controlls how quickly the ignition point propigates to the entire charge, and how low the temp of the ignition has to be. Octane does not make power, it helps other parts make power. It allows you to advance your timing more, or run a higher compression so that the higher heat then is generated from say hot spots in the combustion chamber or higher compression will not ignite the gasoline before the spark comes. (ie pre-ignition)...In short the higher octane allow the engine to run in a more radical form. and makes the gas more stable...
This is why you read about race cars having a different tune for different octane they are using..
To quote the "how sutff works book"
"The octane rating of gasoline tells you how much the fuel can be compressed before it spontaneously ignites"
anyone please feel free to correct any of my logic.
-geoffrey
thats how i understand it.......thats why turbo cars run higher boost with higher octane to avoid detination which is the same as pre-ignition.
Because of the heat and compression the lower octane will ignite as soon as it enters the combustion chamber, instead when the plug sparks. Higher octane requires more heat to burn
Because of the heat and compression the lower octane will ignite as soon as it enters the combustion chamber, instead when the plug sparks. Higher octane requires more heat to burn
I definately think you are having issues with your timing. In my 91 GT I had with TFS heads I use to run 17* of timing and 93 fuel of course. Timing is a key to getting good numbers and if your not willing to use 93 octane fuel for the timing because of money then maybe you should get a new hobby.
It also sounds like you for sure are having valvetrain issues. I highly doubt you can use stock pushrods for AFR's. The only way to know for sure is to get an adjustable pushrod and check it yourself to make sure. Also when I use to adjust my rockers I would always go zero lash on the base circle of the cam then go another half a turn beyond zero lash. I never had an issue and the car ran strong with it setup like this. I would check these things for sure as it sounds like they are your main culprits but I am sure the cam grind and torque converter are hurting you a bit too.
It also sounds like you for sure are having valvetrain issues. I highly doubt you can use stock pushrods for AFR's. The only way to know for sure is to get an adjustable pushrod and check it yourself to make sure. Also when I use to adjust my rockers I would always go zero lash on the base circle of the cam then go another half a turn beyond zero lash. I never had an issue and the car ran strong with it setup like this. I would check these things for sure as it sounds like they are your main culprits but I am sure the cam grind and torque converter are hurting you a bit too.
Regardless of what you think dude, you are obviously having some serious valvetrain or A/F problems, those lines are all over the place.
Well, I adjusted my rockers and went the extra 1/4 turn and then went a little further....added a shim on ones that had to go more than another 1/2 turn.
So the pushrods are really damn close ...maybe...
Now I'm not sure anymore.
Would....4 extra degrees timing give me that 50 hp? I'll run 93 if I think it will get me
Hell, I'd bolt up my stamped 1.6 factory rockers if I thought it would make a difference.
I checked the stall speed tonight and I pegged the throttle from a dead stop twice and once with the brake method and only got 2000 tops........never had perfect traction. Maybe this is acting as a 2k stall then. It's just a tci streetfighter.
What can I do to check the valvetrain? Compression test?
I'll get specs on that cam tommorrow. Thanks for all the advice guys. I'm gonna advance my timing next step.
So the pushrods are really damn close ...maybe...
Now I'm not sure anymore. Would....4 extra degrees timing give me that 50 hp? I'll run 93 if I think it will get me
Hell, I'd bolt up my stamped 1.6 factory rockers if I thought it would make a difference.
I checked the stall speed tonight and I pegged the throttle from a dead stop twice and once with the brake method and only got 2000 tops........never had perfect traction. Maybe this is acting as a 2k stall then. It's just a tci streetfighter.
What can I do to check the valvetrain? Compression test?
I'll get specs on that cam tommorrow. Thanks for all the advice guys. I'm gonna advance my timing next step.
DMAN302
My mom says thanks for the pearl necklace.
lines are acutally so erratic because the smoothing factor of #0 is being used, the majority of pulls will look like that with that smoothing factor being used.
DMAN302 said:
I was wondering when someone was going to notice that!
Those lines are all unsmoothed. I did notice that your power and torque numbers were all over the place over the 4 pulls. What were you doing to the car in between pulls? Something seems really off....i would expect 275rwhp with that combo.crazypete said:Well, I adjusted my rockers and went the extra 1/4 turn and then went a little further....added a shim on ones that had to go more than another 1/2 turn.
So the pushrods are really damn close ...maybe...
Would....4 extra degrees timing give me that 50 hp? I'll run 93 if I think it will get me
Hell, I'd bolt up my stamped 1.6 factory rockers if I thought it would make a difference.
I checked the stall speed tonight and I pegged the throttle from a dead stop twice and once with the brake method and only got 2000 tops........never had perfect traction. Maybe this is acting as a 2k stall then. It's just a tci streetfighter.
What can I do to check the valvetrain? Compression test?
I'll get specs on that cam tommorrow. Thanks for all the advice guys. I'm gonna advance my timing next step.
If you can adjust all of your 1.7's one quarter to a half turn (and assuming you did it according to the Crane/Ford directions) then your pushrod lengths should be fine.Another clue is that it can't be a very big cam to cause you to need longer pushrods.
Performer intake = edelbrock's version of the stock 85 aluminum intake. You would see a pretty good improvement from a performer rpm or a wiand stealth. Regardless of what ed curtis said, it would be a good idea to check pushrod lenght just to rule that out. Im assuming you have checked all the plugs to make sure they are firing. Were you looking at a wide band for O2 readings? Perhaps a 600-650 cfm carb would also help out too.
somthing is wrong not sure about the carb conversion, but with my h/c/i i only lost about 3mpg and still get 21, your car is running very ineffecently, do the math on 93 octane and it is not as much more as you think, i did it once and it was only like 200 bucks a year or something. 93 is a must have it you want any kind of numbers, a motor is only as effecient as you make it, and a dedication to 87 octane is silly. put some good fuel in the old girl and get the valetrain stuff right and a milder cam, and call it a day, i would imagine the fuel milage has to do with the monster cam gl
bluevenom867
I will have images of molesting stuffed animals in
Crazypete,I doubt you got "triple springs" with only 130lbs on them...sounds like small doubles with a dampner.
The timing and 87 octane is pretty big...try throwing some 91-93 in her and bumping the timing up to 16* initial and increas the advance rate to as fast as possable.Also,like mentioned the Autometer gauge wont do you much good.Besides,if it is accurate,your runing a little lean for best power.Try to get more around 12.2-5:1 @ WOT.Oh,and if you havent already...try a 1" open spacer,they help the cylinders get access to the carb full cfm capabilities on a dual plane.
The timing and 87 octane is pretty big...try throwing some 91-93 in her and bumping the timing up to 16* initial and increas the advance rate to as fast as possable.Also,like mentioned the Autometer gauge wont do you much good.Besides,if it is accurate,your runing a little lean for best power.Try to get more around 12.2-5:1 @ WOT.Oh,and if you havent already...try a 1" open spacer,they help the cylinders get access to the carb full cfm capabilities on a dual plane.
I 100% agree. 2000 dollars on parts, then you're gunna skimp 30 cents a gallon? Get ****ing real man.tording said:
two things...
have you checked to make sure you have the correct firing order? there were two over the years for 302s.
also, whoever built the engine may not have properly indexed the cam. I'm not sure, but it seems like custom grinds are not supposed to be installed "straight up".
dunno, just suggestions
have you checked to make sure you have the correct firing order? there were two over the years for 302s.
also, whoever built the engine may not have properly indexed the cam. I'm not sure, but it seems like custom grinds are not supposed to be installed "straight up".
dunno, just suggestions
Yep... 87 gas sux!! IF you want the power of 600 HP... then Play the fuel to match it ( yeah I know you arent running 600 HP).. Go 93 or quit bitch'n!! the engine will only do what it can.. what was the ICL on the cam.. did you install that correct?? what is the compression with the comp. gage?? If it were me?? I would "KISS" and look at everything again.. slowly.. and then recheck the **** again!! with my ported E7s we will see alot more poneys than that with the FMS B cam!! (with an AOD) Oh yeah.. KISS Keep it simple stupid!! Dont look for the hard stuff untill you have finished the easy stuf.. like 93 / like 14-16 * inital/ 38 lbs fp with vac off/compression test to see where you are..
But hey that is
Just me..........................................
Thumper
PS 1200 heads.. 350 custom cam = 227/308?? HMMMmmmmm makes you wonder... LOL
Tpr
But hey that is
Just me..........................................
Thumper
PS 1200 heads.. 350 custom cam = 227/308?? HMMMmmmmm makes you wonder... LOL
Tpr
ok, just found the cam specs... 5.80/5.70 lift at 1.70, 216/224 duration at .050 lift, 110 sep. Ed Curtis thinks its timing and mixture related. Allright, I'll tank up on 93 and advance the timing into the blue yonder and see what happens on the SOTP dyno first.
As for the other stuff...
Cam was degreed by scratching my head then lining up the dots. I had a degree wheel but did not know what exactly to do with it. Obviously it's supposed to bolt on the front of the cam but then it hits the crank, then there's some triangles that say open and close. Couldnt make heads or tails of the whole affair so I lined up the dots and verified my work by turning the engine over by hand and verifying non-whackage of pistons. I further verified it by the continued non whackage since last august and smooth idle , drivability, etc...
Lets say it wasnt degreed properly, a few degrees off... wouldn't it just shift the powerband around a couple hundred rpms, not whack 50 hp off?
Is there anything I can do to test this right now with the engine together? Compression test? Putting the stamped steel 1.6's back on?
As for the other stuff...
Cam was degreed by scratching my head then lining up the dots. I had a degree wheel but did not know what exactly to do with it. Obviously it's supposed to bolt on the front of the cam but then it hits the crank, then there's some triangles that say open and close. Couldnt make heads or tails of the whole affair so I lined up the dots and verified my work by turning the engine over by hand and verifying non-whackage of pistons. I further verified it by the continued non whackage since last august and smooth idle , drivability, etc...
Lets say it wasnt degreed properly, a few degrees off... wouldn't it just shift the powerband around a couple hundred rpms, not whack 50 hp off?
Is there anything I can do to test this right now with the engine together? Compression test? Putting the stamped steel 1.6's back on?
I deffinately think you should be making alot more power than you are with that combo. I made 270 with stock short block and a head/intake swap. I would say put it on the A/F wideband next time you go up to the dyno, and fill it up with 93 and bump the timing. If that doesn't work, i'd suggest checking what your car does with the stock cam back in and advanced.
First thing is that if you were expecting 400hp out of that combo, you set yourself up for dissapointment from the get go. For one thing, I will take issue with the fact that they claim they got 278 hp out of a bone stock 5.0 even through the stock headers with only the addition of the Stealth intake. I don't buy it. Many baseline dynos I have seen on similar engines are below 200hp and I think thats probably fairly realistic. Maybe thay "corrected" their numbers??? And even though they would like you to think they just slapped on some new parts and watched the dyno spit out those numbers, I'm sure that aint how it went down. Hours of dyno tuning under perfect conditions probably happened that they don't tell you about.
It sounds like you asked EC to grind you a dumptruck cam that pulled like a bitch to 4k so I wouldn't expect to see big HP numbers but plenty of torque. But looking at those cam specs, its not what I would call an RV/towing cam so I would expect some pretty decent power out of it. That intake would not have been my choice though. I would probably go with an RPM air gap or at least an RPM or even the Stealth gets very favorable reviews. It also sounds like you are using one of the autometer A/F guages to base your A/F on. I would put no faith what so ever in those, nothing but pretty lights. The dyno facilities wideband should tell you if your fuel mixture needs work. Some seem to think your carb is too small but IMO, it should be pretty close, especially since it sounds like you don't spin it very tight. Now I don't claim to be an expert but I would actually think that in the neighborhood of 300hp at the flywheel is a more realistic number to shoot for with a better matched intake and decent state of tune.
It sounds like you asked EC to grind you a dumptruck cam that pulled like a bitch to 4k so I wouldn't expect to see big HP numbers but plenty of torque. But looking at those cam specs, its not what I would call an RV/towing cam so I would expect some pretty decent power out of it. That intake would not have been my choice though. I would probably go with an RPM air gap or at least an RPM or even the Stealth gets very favorable reviews. It also sounds like you are using one of the autometer A/F guages to base your A/F on. I would put no faith what so ever in those, nothing but pretty lights. The dyno facilities wideband should tell you if your fuel mixture needs work. Some seem to think your carb is too small but IMO, it should be pretty close, especially since it sounds like you don't spin it very tight. Now I don't claim to be an expert but I would actually think that in the neighborhood of 300hp at the flywheel is a more realistic number to shoot for with a better matched intake and decent state of tune.
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