do you think it's worth it

fast97gt · Nov 20, 2009

well ive found a good steal, a 2002 4.6gt motor fo 150 bucks. but theres a catch, the oil pump's locked up. the guy is a friend of mine and he knows im looking for pi motor so he calls me up and starts telling me about it, th pass side timing chain guide plastic peice boke off and has gotten into the metal of it. he "thinks" the peices of plastic got sucked in to the oil pump locking it up. know what kind of damages normally occur when this happens, other than the oil pump being distroyed. he shut the engine off as soon as the oil pressure dropped. he was driving around town and not in it (the throttle) when it happened. he runs a local salvage yard and didnt wanna have the hassle to tear it apart and fix it. so he swapped a 15k 03 grand mark engine he had on the shelf. however the 02gt motor only has 86k on it and ran d**n good before it happened, (i rode in it 2wks ago) so is it worth 150 bucks and hope to only replace the oil pump, i plan on going to look at it and maybe pop a couple main caps off to check the bearings. Oh i plan on stuffing this in my 97gt

40oz · Nov 20, 2009

you can probably steal the heads and intake if nothing else, and use the rest for a coffee table

Honestly, swap the heads and intake and then you don't have to worry if there was another issue when the oil pump siezed. Plus your engine will make more power with 2002 heads than those heads make on a 2002 engine. You'd be a fool to put that engine into your car as-is.

It's worth $150 just for the heads IMHO.

Rickyll7 · Nov 20, 2009

40oz said:
you can probably steal the heads and intake if nothing else, and use the rest for a coffee table

Honestly, swap the heads and intake and then you don't have to worry if there was another issue when the oil pump siezed. Plus your engine will make more power with 2002 heads than those heads make on a 2002 engine. You'd be a fool to put that engine into your car as-is.

It's worth $150 just for the heads IMHO.

I agree, but I would have the heads checkout and cleaned by a local machine shop to make sure you don't have any metal/plastic contaminates in the heads. Might as well get a port and polish on them too.

trinity_gt · Nov 20, 2009

Hard to believe plastic could get by that screen in the pick-up in a large enough size or quantity to "lock up" the oil pump. It's plastic vs metal beging driven by the crankshaft: any small bits that made past the screen and into the pump would just be deformed and squashed in the pump before being spat out to the oil filter. If the engine is locked it's probably not just a bit of plastic in the oil pump.

If you've got the room and time, I agree that the core might be useful for parts like the heads and cams but I would disassemble them and check them carefully to ensure whatever happened to the shortblock didn't hurt them (contaminants in the oil galleries, scored journals, bent valves etc etc.)

Rickyll7 · Nov 20, 2009

trinity_gt said:
Hard to believe plastic could get by that screen in the pick-up in a large enough size or quantity to "lock up" the oil pump. It's plastic vs metal beging driven by the crankshaft: any small bits that made past the screen and into the pump would just be deformed and squashed in the pump before being spat out to the oil filter. If the engine is locked it's probably not just a bit of plastic in the oil pump.

If you've got the room and time, I agree that the core might be useful for parts like the heads and cams but I would disassemble them and check them carefully to ensure whatever happened to the shortblock didn't hurt them (contaminants in the oil galleries, scored journals, bent valves etc etc.)

The chains could have tossed some crap up ontop of the heads and it's possible that the pump actualy broke on it's own. I agree about the screen; I don't think any significant amount of stuff got through the screen.

In eaither case, don't put anything on your car that cant be proven to be contaminant and defect free.

fast97gt · Nov 20, 2009

well i would love to just "swap" the heads and be done, but ive got a npi that has over 220k and is whore slap the H out. thats why im trying to weigh my options buy a low mile junker for $800-$1200 or go through fun of rebuilding that 02gt engine. so i kinda had an idea that something else caused the pump to lock up, but what i wont know till tomm. also i wouldnt just throw the engine in as is if i didnt feel comfy about it, ive been around cars my whole life and have rebuilt and built engines, trannys, and rears so its not something i do feel comfy doing if i had to. but before i do is there any more opinions out there

ChillPhatCat · Nov 20, 2009

To be able to trust the junker engine I'd want it torn down and looked at closely by a professional... in which case you might as well rebuild your own engine and drop the heads/cams on from the junker.

patman0911 · Nov 20, 2009

ChillPhatCat said:
To be able to trust the junker engine I'd want it torn down and looked at closely by a professional... in which case you might as well rebuild your own engine and drop the heads/cams on from the junker.

Indeed.

The only reasons to rebuild the '02 motor instead of rebuilding yours and putting the PI heads on it (after getting them throughly checked - cams need oil too you know!) would be if you didn't want any downtime when you swapped the motor or you didn't want the compression bump because forced induction is in the future.

fast97gt · Nov 21, 2009

no, no fi in the future. simply because i dont need it, however i would like to make mine around 300+325hp at the wheels. going to that from my 185hp wore ou npi would be awesome.

Gearbanger 101 · Nov 21, 2009

Sounds like it ran low on oil to me. Pull the heads and inspect the cams/cam journals before plopping down any money. If they're scored, there's no sense buying the engine at all. If this guy truely is a "buddy", then he won't mind.

wmburns · Nov 21, 2009

4.6 gerotor pump and gear galling

trinity_gt said:
Hard to believe plastic could get by that screen in the pick-up in a large enough size or quantity to "lock up" the oil pump. It's plastic vs metal beging driven by the crankshaft: any small bits that made past the screen and into the pump would just be deformed and squashed in the pump before being spat out to the oil filter. If the engine is locked it's probably not just a bit of plastic in the oil pump.

If you've got the room and time, I agree that the core might be useful for parts like the heads and cams but I would disassemble them and check them carefully to ensure whatever happened to the shortblock didn't hurt them (contaminants in the oil galleries, scored journals, bent valves etc etc.)

Please look at the attached pictures from a tear down of a 2000 Windsor. Pieces of plastic from the timing set can be seen blocking the pick up (the picture does not reflect just how bad the pick up was when the pan first removed). This should give an idea just how easy it is for debris to clog the oil pick up screen.

IMO, the pick-up screen blocked the big stuff. The oil filter would catch the rest. By far the biggest issue is the fact the motor was run without oil possibly damaging every bearing.

It is silly to think that the oil pump just happen to break on its own. The side gear clearances of the modular 4.6 gerotor oil pump are critical. A gerotor pump is prone to galling if run dry.

trinity_gt · Nov 21, 2009

wmburns said:
Please look at the attached pictures from a tear down of a 2000 Windsor. Pieces of plastic from the timing set can be seen blocking the pick up (the picture does not reflect just how bad the pick up was when the pan first removed). This should give an idea just how easy it is for debris to clog the oil pick up screen.

Please go back and re-read my post. My point was not that the screen could not get blocked. It was that while the screen would prevent large pieces from getting into the oil pump, very small pieces that did get through the fine screen pitch could not themselves cause an engine to a stop or prevent it from turning due to getting jammed in the oil pump.

I mean I suppose of the oil pump had plastic bits in it the engine might appear to be tough to turn with a ratchet wrench on the crank bolt but such stuff isn't going to stop a running engine: oil starvation and bearing seizure is more likely to be the cause.

I agree that oil starvation is probably the biggest concern with an engine that's suffered pick-up blockage which is why I said "If the engine is locked it's probably not just a bit of plastic in the oil pump." It's also why I recommended the OPer disassemble the heads and check for oil starvation damage on the cam journals, contaminants in the oil galleries even things like bent valves which may have occurred if the engine went out of time due to a skipped timing chain as the tensioner/guides came apart.

It is silly to think that the oil pump just happen to break on its own. The side gear clearances of the modular 4.6 gerotor oil pump are critical. A gerotor pump is prone to galling if run dry.

FWIW, the powdered metal gears in these pumps are at risk if the engine is equipped with underdrive pulleys. Crank snout torsional vibrations can beat these brittle parts to failure if the condition is severe enough.

Regardless, breakage of the pump was not what I was talking about. I was talking about a small piece of solid plastic debris making its way past the pickup and into the pump and jamming it -- not necessarily breaking it -- stopping the engine. I think such small pieces of plastic would instead just be mashed something like a plastigage strip and sent out the output to be captured in the filter. Further, I don't believe that plastic the size of which would get through the pickup screen would have enough strength to break the oil pump gears as a result of getting jammed in the pump.

If the pump gears are indeed broken then it's probably because an incorrect vibration damper was used on the engine and/or oil starvation due to the pickup being blocked.

fast97gt · Nov 22, 2009

*UPDATE* well its a no go, i got to his house and started taking things apart, 1-started with the last rod cap, and i could tell that the guy he swapped the motor for told him a lie, he claimed the engine was at idle when the pump locked up, 2-i looked closer at the pick-up screen and it was clogged. that told me the engine was starved for oil, now we all know if you starve an engine of oil especially a 4.6 its bad news for the bearings. so i popped the rear main cap off and i was not to shocked to see at all that the bearing had spun...soo i decided to go top side to the heads, hoping but not keeping my fingers crossed that they were salvageble, but no such luck, now for the good stuff. he gave me the aluminum x-over pi intake, and a set of subframe connecters. oh and he took me for a ride in his 2008 gt500 KR. with only 25mi on the clock, now that is a super sick car lemme tell ya. oh and no didnt make the purchase on the engine, but wish i had enough money for the KR

Gearbanger 101 · Nov 22, 2009

trinity_gt said:
FWIW, the powdered metal gears in these pumps are at risk if the engine is equipped with underdrive pulleys.

For the cheaper piggy back style pullies like the BBK, or March units perhaps, but i've seen no evidence to suport this statement when utilizing the once piece aftermarket pulleys that are built similar to the stock dampner, like the Steeda, Summit, or UPR units.

trinity_gt · Nov 22, 2009

Gearbanger 101 said:
For the cheaper piggy back style pullies like the BBK, or March units perhaps, but i've seen no evidence to suport this statement when utilizing the once piece aftermarket pulleys that are built similar to the stock dampner, like the Steeda, Summit, or UPR units.

Actually, the piggybacks are among the least offensive because they maintain the factory damper and its characteristics. Steeda makes a point of telling you on their 4.6 pulley page that they leverage their "partnership in Ford's technology transfer program to have the proper torsional vibration dampening characteristics for your 4.6L engine." The only way I see that getting better is to have the OE Ford piece there which the piggybacks provide.

Regardless, let's not derail this thread on that topic. Oil pump gears can break under certain conditions which is what I was alluding to in response to another post and this is as far as it's worth going on that topic.

40oz · Nov 23, 2009

I think the issue with oil pump gears is when the underdrive pulley replaces the damper, so an egnine is running without a damper. As long as you retain a damper and everything is installed correctly, I don't think there is an issue. But I'd choose a crank pulley incorporating a damper vs. piggybacking the stock crank pulley on an undamped pulley, given a choice.

But yeah, all that has been said is why I stated that the OP would be a fool to simply swap engines.

Gearbanger 101 · Nov 23, 2009

40oz said:
I think the issue with oil pump gears is when the underdrive pulley replaces the damper, so an egnine is running without a damper.

You don't lose the dampening effect when running a one piece underiven crank pulley. The new crank pulley is the new dampener and is built just like the stock dampener is. Only their inner area, where the belt travels is underdriven. The outside ring still retains the full, balanced weight to provide the proper dampening effect. They're balanced to 12,500RPM and contain the rubber impregnated ring and are SFI 18.1 approved just like the OEM ones are. I believe the one piece U/D pulley creating bottom end failure is nothing more than a myth started on the internet and have yet to see hard proof pointing to the contrary.

You guys realize that the stock Ford damper is interchangeable between the 2V, 3V and 4V engine as well as the 4.6L, 5.4L and 6.8L Modular engines right? I mean if these bottom ends were that sensitive to weight and harmonic changes, why does "one size fit all" when it comes to their dampener? I’ve had a much heavier than stock, 5.4L 8-rib truck dampener on my 4.6L Mercury Cougar engine for 5-years now without the slightest issue. It’s still as quiet and holds oil pressure as well as the day it did when I built it.

The two piece pulleys on the other hand, although they still utilize the stock dampener, set it several inches out in front, away from the end of the crank shaft. This IMO is far worse for torsional vibration and harmonic resonance than a one piece design. Anyone who’s tried to maintain a decent balance on a set of wheels with a huge offset in order to stick them outside the fenders knows where I’m coming from on this one. You’ll want the dampener as close to the bearing as possible for the best possible balance and most vibrational dampening.

do you think it's worth it

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