Dream modular build...

Gearbanger 101 · Oct 17, 2009

Curious....but why the desire for the Mark VIII/'96-'98 Cobra short blocks with everyones build if all they plan on seeing is 500-600hp. Hell, even the most basic modular short block is good for at least that. Why go overkill with an early Teksid block that you'll never see the potential of and need to modify to make work with the 2V head castings, when a plain old Explorer short block would do just as well and is a direct bolt on?

nickmckinney · Oct 17, 2009

Gearbanger 101 said:
Curious....but why the desire for the Mark VIII/'96-'98 Cobra short blocks with everyones build if all they plan on seeing is 500-600hp. Hell, even the most basic modular short block is good for at least that. Why go overkill with an early Teksid block that you'll never see the potential of and need to modify to make work with the 2V head castings, when a plain old Explorer short block would do just as well and is a direct bolt on?

One word - compression. Those -3CC pistons are needed for real NA builds.

It takes one drill bit and 30 seconds to modify the Teksid for a 2V head.

Gearbanger 101 · Oct 17, 2009

nickmckinney said:
One word - compression. Those -3CC pistons are needed for real NA builds.

It takes one drill bit and 30 seconds to modify the Teksid for a 2V head.

I supose.....but if memorey serves, anything more than a stock 2V cam profile will result in some serious piston to valve contact with the 4V pistons. In which case, how much power are you really capable of making? You're kind of compromising one performance enhancement, for another IMO.

Besides....since this is a "dream build" after all, wouldn't most people consider throwing in a set of forged slugs and some light weight I-Beam rods into the mix for strength and longevity? And I wouldn't think you would want to make a habit of too many 7,000RPM blasts with the stock cast crank in there either....which isn't likely to be worth while anyway if we're limiting ourself to the stock cams needed to run the 4V pistons?

bhuff30 · Oct 17, 2009

I like Winters plans a lot... an 03/04 4v with a turbo.

My plans involve E85 and lots of boost. I'd probably run a teksid block with upgraded rods and pistons, PI heads/cams/intake, a hair below 9:1 compression, and a smaller turbo than most people typically run. I'd have spool up start around 2000 and full boost by 2500-2600rpm. I love torque, and full boost of about 20psi by 2500 would be REAL torque. It would all be possible with E85 too... around 105 octane and it is oxygenated. I was running 25psi and a small shot of nitrous without knock on my 2.3. I wouldn't care so much about the top end power. Even with a PI intake and cams, it would probably be around 600hp.

Winters plans are much simpler though, and I'd probably rather go that way... but run E85 and a whole bunch more boost.

nickmckinney · Oct 17, 2009

Gearbanger 101 said:
I supose.....but if memorey serves, anything more than a stock 2V cam profile will result in some serious piston to valve contact with the 4V pistons. In which case, how much power are you really capable of making? You're kind of compromising one performance enhancement, for another IMO.

Besides....since this is a "dream build" after all, wouldn't most people consider throwing in a set of forged slugs and some light weight I-Beam rods into the mix for strength and longevity? And I wouldn't think you would want to make a habit of too many 7,000RPM blasts with the stock cast crank in there either....which isn't likely to be worth while anyway if we're limiting ourself to the stock cams needed to run the 4V pistons?

Piston dish has nothing to do with PTV contact, here is the biggest dish OEM piston with a 2V valve notch, you can see its halfway into the outer flat edge:

I just don't see the need to spend a ton of dough on the bottom end for a 7000RPM NA motor and you have to spend real money to get parts that don't cost power in added rotating weight over the stock stuff. There are people taking the cast crank to 8000RPM on properly set up assemblies, and the stock rods and pistons are good to 7000RPM all day long. Its when you start adding boost or nitrous that the stock pistons and rods show their weakness, but NA they are fine.

Plus the price of a set of good lightweight pistons is about triple the price of another Teksid shortblock even factoring in the piston notching.

Most 2V HP I know of on the stock shortblock right now is 350RWHP with TFS heads and fastest time N/A is 11.5@116MPH at the moment, stock hyper pistons, stock powdered rods in both.

Anyway in my dream build I want the nose of the car as light as possible and the motor pushed back as far as possible to get the handling as good as possible. So for me its a NA aluminum block, the lightest internals available without breaking the bank (since it got spent on the parts that really make NA power = intake/heads/cams/headers), and a thinwall sheetmetal aluminum intake to make 7000 RPM shifts that doesn't heatsoak like all the other aluminum ones.

N8Dogg98 · Oct 18, 2009

My desire for a teksid block (ideally a short block out of a 96-98 Cobra) has to do with the higher compression pistons, the lighter weight alum block, and the forged crank.

I suppose I could get the same result with an aluminum explorer engine, forged crank, and 32 valve aero cobra pistons but seems to me it would be easier to just purchase a used cobra engine...

Gearbanger 101 · Oct 18, 2009

Cool, but you do realize the Mark VIII doesn't have the forged crank, right?

nickmckinney · Oct 18, 2009

Forged crank isn't needed IMHO unless you are going after some serious power numbers, and it does weigh more so it costs you some power in rotating weight. Lots of shops are finding out that the cast crank is holding up just fine, crank failures are pretty rare on these motors thankfully.

98COBRA281 · Oct 18, 2009

im running mark 8 pistons (2.66 cc dish) and running 225/230 dur @ .50 540/540 lift, 112lsa cams with no problems, and have revved it to 6500+, and im running comp springs...........

SCalla1384 · Oct 18, 2009

Option 1:
Kenne Bell 2.6 or Hellion Turbo
T-56
Built Rear End
MMR 900 Shortblock
Crower Stage 3 Blower Cams
Trickflow Heads
Meth Injection

Option 2:
MMR 900 Shortblock 5.0 Stroker (High Compression)
HiTech 2 Cams
Trickflow 38cc Ported Heads
T-56
Built Rear
200 Shot

Mustang92 · Oct 18, 2009

I'd have to say 2 only because the first one is nearing completion so it won't be a dream for long.

1. 600RWHP+ Twin Screw on pump gas, 700+ on Race or E85
-Teksid based shortblock 8.5:1
-Forged rods/pistons/crank
-Modular Head Shop Ported heads, Livernois springs
-03/04 Cobra accessory/intake swap (eaton swap minus the eaton)
-3.4 Whipple
-D&D Viper Spec T-56

2. 400RWHP 4V NA
Big Bore or 5.4
Ported heads/intake
High compression
T-56

Bill

Green&GoldGT · Oct 19, 2009

1. MMR 351, nasty cams, ported 4v heads, 10-71 blower

2. MMR 351, high compression, trick flow heads, nasty cams, carbed Edelbrock, NX plate kit

stang06girl · Oct 20, 2009

Gearbanger 101 said:
Twin Screw + Compound Boost = no go

Twin Screw compress the air between the screws within the confines of the case housing itself....unlike an Eaton which compresses the air within the lower manifold. Meaning trying to force feed a screw compressor is going to lead to insane ACT's and eventually a broken blower.

What's the matter....a 1,200hp capable Twin Turbo/Eaton M112 combination isn't enough jam for you?

Hmmmm the roots vs twin screw battle .... This was supposed to be about dream engines and compounding.... Oh well!

I would bet the turbo is putting out about 900 hp, and the eaton 300 hp. Starting to think melted pistons.
Lets see ..... a 1800 hp twin turbo with a KB 2.8 or Whipple 3.4 would be even more insane. 1200 hp is actually too much unless you are have a trailered track only car. The engine might even last for a month! If you really want to make insane horsepower, get rid of the supercharger, and turn the turbo boost up to 50 psi like John Milhovetz (sp?). He puts out like 2000 hp. .... on the other hand, he only gets a couple of runs before he tears the engine down. Totally Cool setup by the way!

You are missing the whole beauty of compounding. I was actually thinking more along the lines of 800 hp, with smaller turbos putting out 300 hp (7-8 psi), and the twin screw putting out 500 hp (10 psi) for the strip, and then you could turn the boost controller way down on the turbo, and actually drive the thing on the street. The real beauty of the componding is that you have the instant boost off the line with the twin screw (or roots), and higher horsepower/efficiency/power of the turbos at the high rpm range, and not having to work either system very hard.

So you are saying that the ACT's with an intercooled 10 psi turbo going into a 10 psi intercooled twin screw would be higher than ACT's of a twin screw by itself running at 20 psi? Either way, the total work done is ... 20 psi, with the coresponding temperature increase.

The delta P across the rotors is still only 10 psi either way (it's the differential pressure accross the rotor and rotor RPM that break the rotors), as far as the case blowing up .... 20 psi is 20 psi, the case doesn't give a damn.

I'm not buying the argument that twin screw + turbo's would lead to insane ACT's = no go.

The statement that air is compressed in the lower manifold with a roots blower is BS as well. Say you have a roots at 10 psi boost. The lower manifold pressure is 10 psi higher than the inlet pressure. The lower intake is not changing in size, so where is the air getting compressed? The delta P in a roots blower actually occurs at point at which the rotors interact with each other and actually has a slight back flow at the rotor to rotor interface, creating the delta P and the coresponding temperature increase, hense the air is already compressed to ... 10 psi (and already heated as well) where it exits the rotors into the lower manifold.

So why does Ford intercool all of those Terminators and GT500's. ..... Oh Yeah ACT's

Besides, Why in the hell would I downgrade to an Eaton M112 when I already have a KB 2.6 Stage 2? I'd loose like a 100 hp at 10 psi.
I'd loose like 250 hp at 19 psi. I might as well go back to stock.
A 5.4 4V Supersnake with with an Eaton TVS 2300 puts out 600 hp, while the KB 2.8 Twin Screw Supersnake puts out = 725 hp.
Stock terminator = 400 hp. Put a tiny KB 2.1 on it, and it puts out over 600 rwhp on pump gas. Put a Whipple 3.4 or KB 2.8 on it, and boom 750 hp.
Then there is KarKrafts GMC 6-71 blower conversion for a terminator engine 400 hp at 10 psi? I'm not real impressed with that one either.

Oh yeah,
Helion has a new GT500 system where they compound GT500's with the stock OR OTHER AFTERMARKET superchargers.
I noticed that they didn't exclude the Whipples or the KB's.
07-09 Shelby GT500 Twin Turbo System - 650 to 1,200+ HP

The question is not whether it's enough jam for me, .... but is the jam worth a damn.

Gearbanger 101 · Oct 20, 2009

stang06girl said:
Hmmmm the roots vs twin screw battle .... This was supposed to be about dream engines and compounding.... Oh well!

I would bet the turbo is putting out about 900 hp, and the eaton 300 hp. Starting to think melted pistons.
Lets see ..... a 1800 hp twin turbo with a KB 2.8 or Whipple 3.4 would be even more insane. 1200 hp is actually too much unless you are have a trailered track only car. The engine might even last for a month! If you really want to make insane horsepower, get rid of the supercharger, and turn the turbo boost up to 50 psi like John Milhovetz (sp?). He puts out like 2000 hp. .... on the other hand, he only gets a couple of runs before he tears the engine down. Totally Cool setup by the way!

You are missing the whole beauty of compounding. I was actually thinking more along the lines of 800 hp, with smaller turbos putting out 300 hp (7-8 psi), and the twin screw putting out 500 hp (10 psi) for the strip, and then you could turn the boost controller way down on the turbo, and actually drive the thing on the street. The real beauty of the componding is that you have the instant boost off the line with the twin screw (or roots), and higher horsepower/efficiency/power of the turbos at the high rpm range, and not having to work either system very hard.

So you are saying that the ACT's with an intercooled 10 psi turbo going into a 10 psi intercooled twin screw would be higher than ACT's of a twin screw by itself running at 20 psi? Either way, the total work done is ... 20 psi, with the coresponding temperature increase.

The delta P across the rotors is still only 10 psi either way (it's the differential pressure accross the rotor and rotor RPM that break the rotors), as far as the case blowing up .... 20 psi is 20 psi, the case doesn't give a damn.

I'm not buying the argument that twin screw + turbo's would lead to insane ACT's = no go.

The statement that air is compressed in the lower manifold with a roots blower is BS as well. Say you have a roots at 10 psi boost. The lower manifold pressure is 10 psi higher than the inlet pressure. The lower intake is not changing in size, so where is the air getting compressed? The delta P in a roots blower actually occurs at point at which the rotors interact with each other and actually has a slight back flow at the rotor to rotor interface, creating the delta P and the coresponding temperature increase, hense the air is already compressed to ... 10 psi (and already heated as well) where it exits the rotors into the lower manifold.

So why does Ford intercool all of those Terminators and GT500's. ..... Oh Yeah ACT's

Besides, Why in the hell would I downgrade to an Eaton M112 when I already have a KB 2.6 Stage 2? I'd loose like a 100 hp at 10 psi.
I'd loose like 250 hp at 19 psi. I might as well go back to stock.
A 5.4 4V Supersnake with with an Eaton TVS 2300 puts out 600 hp, while the KB 2.8 Twin Screw Supersnake puts out = 725 hp.
Stock terminator = 400 hp. Put a tiny KB 2.1 on it, and it puts out over 600 rwhp on pump gas. Put a Whipple 3.4 or KB 2.8 on it, and boom 750 hp.
Then there is KarKrafts GMC 6-71 blower conversion for a terminator engine 400 hp at 10 psi? I'm not real impressed with that one either.

Oh yeah,
Helion has a new GT500 system where they compound GT500's with the stock OR OTHER AFTERMARKET superchargers.
I noticed that they didn't exclude the Whipples or the KB's.
07-09 Shelby GT500 Twin Turbo System - 650 to 1,200+ HP

The question is not whether it's enough jam for me, .... but is the jam worth a damn.

Ok....perhaps I didn't make myself clear. This wasn't a Twin Screw vs. Eaton efficiency debate. I wasn't saying that the Eaton MP112 was the more capable blower for making power of the two.

Quite simply, the Twin Screw design itself won't handle the abuse. Compression takes place between the confines of the lobes in a Twin Screw design. When you increase that internal compression ratio, you put insurmountable stress on those screws. The end result at the very least is blown oil seals and worn bearings....at the very worst is metal on metal contact with the rotors because they, or the case, or both are getting out of shape....and catastrophic failure results. Not only that, but compression = heat. And since said compression takes place inside the case of the twin screw itself, as well as the lower manifold after the intercooler brick, heat is significant.....as is the increase chance of detonation and resulting damage.

Eaton’s, as "inferior design" as you believe them to be, do not compress the air, they are merely an air transfer device. They "paddle" air from the inlet side of the case, to the discharge side and no internal compression takes place. Compression takes place in the lower manifold, after the supercharger. Therefore no increased heat, or pressure inside the unit itself to blow/burn out oil seals or prematurely wear bearings. No significant increase in heat and stress on the case also means significanty less rotor flex and a reduced chance in damage. Furthermore, since the discharging air temperatures don’t see the drastic heat increase that they would with a Twin Screw, timing, spark and fuel curves can remain more reserved and predictable, which in the end means more consistent and safer power levels.

Understand?

You don’t need to take my word for it. Just show me an example of a Turbo/Twin screw compound combination. To my knowledge….they don’t exist. And its certainly not because the idea hasn’t crossed anyone’s mind!

georgio440 · Oct 20, 2009

-MMR 900 Shortblock
-Built IRS
-Full coilover suspension with plenty of $$ invested into other suspension components
-Hellion Hellraiser
-Custom 3" O/R exhaust throughout with Bassani SS mufflers
-HRE P40 wheels in satin black (18x9 front, 18x11 rear)
-Some nice rubber, 275 front, 335 rear

And a bunch of other isht. Either that, or option 2:

Dump in a 2000 Cobra R motor.

CatmanJJ · Oct 20, 2009

scupking said:
I have my dream build for my car. I think 350hp out of a 4.6 N/A is darn good.

I hear that.

My dream is still going though, I still plan on a little more with a ported short runner intake maybe a couple other little things but that should leave me around 370+ rwhp which is pretty sweet for a measly 281 or 283 if you want to get technical

02LaserRed2V · Oct 21, 2009

twin turbo 5.4L 4V

If I were to start with an 03 Cobra first instead, I'd probably have that now.

mustang50v8 · Oct 23, 2009

teksid aluminum block bored .20 over
MMR stroker crank to get 302ci
Ported FR500 heads
FR500 Cams
Melling oil pump -long story
manley i-beams
diamond dished pistons with 9 or 9.5 CR
natzy ported upper and lower 99-01 cobra intake
twin turbonetics turbos

93 octane tune so i can run it on pump gas.

also get the IRS derlin bushings from the guy on svtp so i can have a properly preforming IRS.

nickmckinney · Oct 28, 2009

Here is a recent "poor mans" 10 second combo we just saw completed:

Stock plastic PI intake
Forged bottom end (mail order parts)
Ported PI heads with stock combustion chambers
Bullet Stage 2 turbo cams
Single 70mm turbo making 20lbs of boost

621RWHP and 649RWTQ on pump gas at VMP's dyno.

He turned the A/C on and drove it 100+ miles back home after the dyno run.

Dream modular build...

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