Electronic Super/turbocharger "Elecharger" The Real Deal

[Tomtom9401]

Hey guys, so recently at my engineering school i was presented the oppurtunity to do some R&D on any idea/invention that i may have. Cars are my passion, i love anything to do with them. So enevatibally my mind started brainstortming and came up with 2 really cool concepts/ideas. The first one i have is "classified" i have high hopes and still trying to find a company willing to hear me out. But the second idea i had is something that i have pondered for quite some time, and is the reason for this post.

I am sure the first thing that comes to everyones mind when they think electric super/turbo charger is the turbonator or other such scams. I knew from the start those were bogus. Going trough pages and pages of this crap, i actually came upon a guy who has successfully built something similar to what i was thinking. Here is a link Thomas Knight Turbo Electric Supercharger - Tech Review - Turbo Magazine

So now, i know it can and has been done with quite a bit of success actually. He makes claim of having an actual 20 PSI possibility. So now that i know someone has it out there, i have to think of what I can do differently, more effeciently, and more effectively. I plan to design a device that is not only applicable to most any car, but affordable. I have spent a year a UTI learning the basics of engines, how they work, and done a bit of research on superchargers/turbochargers. I feel that I am up to the task.

Obviously i dont plan on having a 12 PSI monster or anything like that, more something that can run a safe and constant 5 PSI. Think about it, an affordable completely bolt-on charger, that has no parasitic loss for the engine.

I come here today to ask for any advice or criticism that you guys may have.
I am hoping to speak with someone with some experience with boosted motors. I understand the basics, but I am having trouble with specific other things such as the electronics/bloff-off valve(if needed) ect...
If i design a device that can deliver a 5psi boost, will i need a boost controller? Do you think a turbocharger controller could be adapted to this situation? I feel confident that most stock cars come with the internals/fuel delivery to handle a 5psi boost. But I am sure there are things that I am missing. Sorry for the incredibly long post. I hope that I can recieve some sort of assistance with this fairly big project that i have undertook. Thanks!

P.S. I have posted here because i currently have a 2004 GT and if a prototype is ever developed it will most likely be the guinea pig.

 

[N8Dogg98]

The problem with electric superchargers has to do with the fact that they cannot move the volume of air required to not only feed the engine but also provide a pressure increase on top of it. Think about this for a second. At 5000 RPM a 4.6 V-8 is moving approximately 320 CFM of air. You'd need an electric air pump capable of supplying 320 CFM of air while also providing enough force to increase the pressure in the intake manifold to 5 psi. Even if you had an air pump capable of this, how would you power such a pump?

 

[Noobz347]

The problem with electric superchargers has to do with the fact that they cannot move the volume of air required to not only feed the engine but also provide a pressure increase on top of it. Think about this for a second. At 5000 RPM a 4.6 V-8 is moving approximately 320 CFM of air. You'd need an electric air pump capable of supplying 320 CFM of air while also providing enough force to increase the pressure in the intake manifold to 5 psi. Even if you had an air pump capable of this, how would you power such a pump?

 

[Tomtom9401]

The problem with electric superchargers has to do with the fact that they cannot move the volume of air required to not only feed the engine but also provide a pressure increase on top of it. Think about this for a second. At 5000 RPM a 4.6 V-8 is moving approximately 320 CFM of air. You'd need an electric air pump capable of supplying 320 CFM of air while also providing enough force to increase the pressure in the intake manifold to 5 psi. Even if you had an air pump capable of this, how would you power such a pump?

Thanks for the response. I am not sure if you took a look at the link i provided but it actually answers a lot of your questions. It will def. be a valuable reference for my research. Obviously the bigger the motor the more air its gonna suck, this is why the experiment the gentleman performed was on a 4 cylinder. I would have to design the system so that it has a variable boost depending on the car. I am thinking that it could be inegrated into the electronic control which could potentially put out a lot more boost than 5psi depending on the application. The 5 psi that i stated was just something that i felt would be safe for any car. I kind of relate it to a 50 shot of nitrous (5psi) to a 100 shot (10 psi) a lot of cars dont really have the needed compression ratio or fuel delivery to be able to handle a lot of boost so the 5psi would be a "recommendation" haha. Also, the power/battery situation was another problem i ran into, digging into the research. The way the gentleman in the link had it setup was, he had 3 electric motors that powered a roots style charger. So you would not have to reply on just one giant 50 pound motor. Unfortunately these motors do require a bit of power. He had i think 3 or 4 extra batteries and still could not keep them charged via the alternator. Then again i think this was because he was running more than 10 PSI. I am hoping, after doing more research, that i will find a safe 5 PSI, is capable of running off a stock set-up battery/alternator. Any applications that would require more than 5psi of boost would have to include a high output alternator and extra battery. Our battery technology is getting better and better every day. People often wire in extra batteries or high output alternators just to run a ridiculous amount of subwoofers hah. Do you mind me asking where you got the 320 CFM of air measurement from? This is the kind of stuff i need to include in my research. Thanks.

 

[bhuff30]

A couple of comments before the others see this and start writing messages of hate and stupidity...

Your biggest enemy will likely be speed control to regulate the boost pressure. Turbochargers do this by bleeding off some of the excess pressure in the collector to reduce the turbo speed. It works perfectly there, but doesn't apply to your electric motor application. Superchargers are driven by the crank shaft, so they somewhat naturally increase airflow as engine speed increases.

You will need some sort of controller to produce the desired airflow at the engine rpm. Otherwise, just like the guy in the article, you will make nice boost in the low and mid range and reduce to nearly nothing by redline. One method would be to use a controller which has an input of engine rpm and then drives the electric motor as a desired speed. Another method would be using feedback of boost pressure. Your controller would try to maintain the desired boost pressure and increase or decrease motor voltage to make it happen (assuming DC).

Keep in mind that DC motors are extremely inefficient. If you wanted to become more efficient, use power electronics to drive your motor on AC. AC motors have much higher efficiency and you can drive them based on the frequency input. Power electronics would pretty much be the best and only way to go on this project.

And my last comment, keep in mind the huge amounts of electric power required to drive a compressor. On a supercharged engine, I think around 10-15% of the crank power is used to drive the blower... so a 400hp engine needs something like 40+hp to drive the blower. Similar power characteristics are required from a turbo, but it comes from the pressure difference. Anyway, the article stated that the first motor he tried required 700A at 12v. and this was just for tiny asthmatic VW beetle motor. That is a HUGE amount of current!! Scale this up to something usable on a modern engine and an AC motor driven by power electronics will look a whole lot better. You will HAVE to increase the voltage and need several extra battery packs to supply the power necesary... with probably some extra charging capacity either from alternators or an external power source.

 

[N8Dogg98]

I got the CFM calculation from another site:

(RPM * engine displacement in CID)/3456

This will give you the CFM assuming the engine is running 100% VE. Most engines run between 80-85% VE so if you multiply the result from that equation by 0.85 that should give you an approximate idea of the CFM an engine moves at a given RPM.

 

[Tomtom9401]

A couple of comments before the others see this and start writing messages of hate and stupidity...

Your biggest enemy will likely be speed control to regulate the boost pressure. Turbochargers do this by bleeding off some of the excess pressure in the collector to reduce the turbo speed. It works perfectly there, but doesn't apply to your electric motor application. Superchargers are driven by the crank shaft, so they somewhat naturally increase airflow as engine speed increases.

You will need some sort of controller to produce the desired airflow at the engine rpm. Otherwise, just like the guy in the article, you will make nice boost in the low and mid range and reduce to nearly nothing by redline. One method would be to use a controller which has an input of engine rpm and then drives the electric motor as a desired speed. Another method would be using feedback of boost pressure. Your controller would try to maintain the desired boost pressure and increase or decrease motor voltage to make it happen (assuming DC).

Keep in mind that DC motors are extremely inefficient. If you wanted to become more efficient, use power electronics to drive your motor on AC. AC motors have much higher efficiency and you can drive them based on the frequency input. Power electronics would pretty much be the best and only way to go on this project.

And my last comment, keep in mind the huge amounts of electric power required to drive a compressor. On a supercharged engine, I think around 10-15% of the crank power is used to drive the blower... so a 400hp engine needs something like 40+hp to drive the blower. Similar power characteristics are required from a turbo, but it comes from the pressure difference. Anyway, the article stated that the first motor he tried required 700A at 12v. and this was just for tiny asthmatic VW beetle motor. That is a HUGE amount of current!! Scale this up to something usable on a modern engine and an AC motor driven by power electronics will look a whole lot better. You will HAVE to increase the voltage and need several extra battery packs to supply the power necesary... with probably some extra charging capacity either from alternators or an external power source.

Thanks! I just posted on your E-85 topic literally 30 seconds ago hah. Your wealth of knowledge is astounding I mention in my first post that I might need some type of controller to vary the blower motor to the engine RPM, i was under the impression thats what a turbo controller some what does. I guess I will have to do more research. I dont understand how i go about getting an AC current into a car? From the sound of it, its making me somewhat drift away from this idea, as our electronic technology isnt as far as i thought it was. It sounds like it would require too much power and would'nt be very practical selling as an "affordable kit" if it requires 10 batteries and an high output alternator. I am gonna do a bit more research. Thank you

 

[007]

First of all, best of luck with your project, and I really hope you enjoy engineering. I really enjoy my career - its NEVER boring. I'm sure you'll love it.

Unfortunately tho, I'm struggling to see any benefits to this idea, and how the finished product would be able to be priced competitively. You know it must have been considered many many years ago, and not pursued...

At the end of the day you need the engine to power the blower. Thats it. Usually thats done via a belt to a mechanical blower, but in this case you suggest using the belt to power an electric blower.
You still have to pull all the power to turn the blower from the crank (the same amount). Its not going to be more efficient. So why complicate things with an electric motor and controller? Complicated usually equals unreliable.

 

[tank_567]

 

[Tomtom9401]

First of all, best of luck with your project, and I really hope you enjoy engineering. I really enjoy my career - its NEVER boring. I'm sure you'll love it.

Unfortunately tho, I'm struggling to see any benefits to this idea, and how the finished product would be able to be priced competitively. You know it must have been considered many many years ago, and not pursued...

At the end of the day you need the engine to power the blower. Thats it. Usually thats done via a belt to a mechanical blower, but in this case you suggest using the belt to power an electric blower.
You still have to pull all the power to turn the blower from the crank (the same amount). Its not going to be more efficient. So why complicate things with an electric motor and controller? Complicated usually equals unreliable.

I think you have been misdirected as far as my design goes. There was no idea for there to be an additional pulley added to power the electric motor. The whole purpose of an electric charger, of such, is having no parasitic loss on the engine. Whether it is the pulley from the supercharger or the backpressure from the turbo. Also, ofcourse the design was considered many years ago, i believe the first idea was 1950 or so from what i read. I felt that our advancements in battery power (i.e. electric cars) and electric motors had significantly increased since then. I am not expecting it to be easy. If it was easily designed and manufactured then everyone would have one. As i have posted previously, prototypes have been developed and used on 4 cylinder engines, with claims of up to 20 PSI. I was hoping to make a leap up to 8. The only real difficulty I can see is getting the required amps to run the electric motors. It will require multiple batteries and the addition of an high output alternator. But nether the less I would still like to see this project through. I appreciate all the critisism and advice. Thanks, keep it coming! Dont lock the thread

 

[kyle_99gt]

have you considered the added weight of extra batteries might negate the added horsepower you would get from reducing the drag on the engine?

 

[007]

The whole purpose of an electric charger, of such, is having no parasitic loss on the engine...


The only real difficulty I can see is getting the required amps to run the electric motors. It will require the addition of an high output alternator...

...which, of course, adds a load of parasitic drag to the motor! In fact, more drag than the mechanical blower would because the electric supercharger is less efficient!

Your missing something here mate. You still have to power your blower with the accessory belt. The excess charging from the stock electrical system isnt going to do anything for you. The extra power for the blower has to come from somewhere.

A turbo is a much better idea!

 

[Winters98GT]

+1

Have to commend you for your efforts. However, they don't work. The big companies would have profited and designed similar units if they did. You won't make 8 psi on a v8.

 

[bhuff30]

thanks,
The boost controller on a turbo works by opening a bypass around the turbine, which reduces the amount of exhaust going through the turbine and slows it down for less boost. They can be either electronic or mechanical, but both take a boost signal from the intake and then open the bypass (wastegate is the correct term) and reduce the boost. Not really applicable on your setup though.

I am taking a power electronics course now and it has opened my eyes to the possibilities of power electronics. You can take a DC current and convert it to nearly and AC signal you want using nearly all solid state devices. To do it 'right', this would probably be the best way, but for the implications to your class, it would be way to complicated. I would just do like that link you showed and let the boost by high at lower rpms and drop off at higher rpms.

Thanks! I just posted on your E-85 topic literally 30 seconds ago hah. Your wealth of knowledge is astounding I mention in my first post that I might need some type of controller to vary the blower motor to the engine RPM, i was under the impression thats what a turbo controller some what does. I guess I will have to do more research. I dont understand how i go about getting an AC current into a car? From the sound of it, its making me somewhat drift away from this idea, as our electronic technology isnt as far as i thought it was. It sounds like it would require too much power and would'nt be very practical selling as an "affordable kit" if it requires 10 batteries and an high output alternator. I am gonna do a bit more research. Thank you

 

[AntiRice98]

I think it will be a lot harder then you think. I didn't read the article but one thing that will be tricky is matching the boost with RPMs. A program will have to be written for that. Also, are you duel enrolling? I'm pretty positive that UTI is a trade school. Not an engineering college.

 

[Tomtom9401]

thanks,
The boost controller on a turbo works by opening a bypass around the turbine, which reduces the amount of exhaust going through the turbine and slows it down for less boost. They can be either electronic or mechanical, but both take a boost signal from the intake and then open the bypass (wastegate is the correct term) and reduce the boost. Not really applicable on your setup though.

I am taking a power electronics course now and it has opened my eyes to the possibilities of power electronics. You can take a DC current and convert it to nearly and AC signal you want using nearly all solid state devices. To do it 'right', this would probably be the best way, but for the implications to your class, it would be way to complicated. I would just do like that link you showed and let the boost by high at lower rpms and drop off at higher rpms.

Good info thanks. From reading a lot of the posts, they make it seem like it is impossible. Almost like when they first started designing electric cars saying, "oh it cant be dont effectively". Now look where were at Chevy Volt, Nissan Leaf and many hybrids. It doesnt suprise me though. After doing a bit of research, it turns out that with the knowledge and technology i have access to at the moment is fairly behind what is needed to effieciently run such a device. In other words i guess you guys are right.I have found multiple blower motors that would be able of producing the required CFM of air to maintain a 5PSI+ boost. However, again the same issue arises with the power, thats the only obstacle. But in a few years i wouldnt be suprised at all seeing something like this marketed that actually works. Thanks for all the help guys!

 

[Tomtom9401]

I think it will be a lot harder then you think. I didn't read the article but one thing that will be tricky is matching the boost with RPMs. A program will have to be written for that. Also, are you duel enrolling? I'm pretty positive that UTI is a trade school. Not an engineering college.

Yeah, its not that its harder than i think. It is just that i dont have access to the technology that i need haha. I went to NTI for a year and dropped to pursue engineering at a community college. Gonna transfer to a university in a year after my associates.

 

[AntiRice98]

Yeah, its not that its harder than i think. It is just that i dont have access to the technology that i need haha. I went to NTI for a year and dropped to pursue engineering at a community college. Gonna transfer to a university in a year after my associates.

Nice, I was in Engineering for a year before I decided I didn't really want to make my hobby my life. Plus I hatted the math. It's a neat idea though, if you can find a way to make forced induction affordable and reliable you will be rich. However, I think trying to combine those two things is the reason it hasn't been done yet.

 

[GDawg]

You might want to super cool some magnets to create a mass particle accelerator to turn the turbo...

Almost nothing from a two year school will transfer to an Engineering school. Maybe some electives. Plan on redoing all your math at a much higher level of challenge. And don't take it lightly. Engineering math is much harder then regular college math courses. And physics. And dynamics. And chemistry. And mechanics.

Have fun!

 

[tank_567]

Here's my big problem with this idea its been around for a long time and many companies have tried to build this technology, and still nothing is really in mass production. If this was cheap and efficient then everyone would be installing this tech into there cars. Your going to need a ton of amps, a very big heavy ass electric motor to turn the turbo compressor to equal the same spool efficiency as a exhaust gas driven turbine, in my opinion is this is a waste of time and money.

I say her down before this turns into a pissing match.