Engine question (having someone build me one...making sure he isnt feeding me B.S)

66backinblack · Dec 4, 2006

this guy seems to be giving pretty good deals. good parts too in his engines. http://stores.ebay.com/P-A-R-E-Race-Engines_W0QQssPageNameZstrkQ3amefsQ3amesstQQtZkm

1966conv · Dec 4, 2006

Allcarfan's pricing is pretty close to correct, but lets not forget, timing chain, timing cover, eccentric, thrust plate, lifters, spider, oil pump, oil pump shaft, water pump, thermostat housing and thermostat, flexplate damper and pulleys, ARP bolts. By the time you add all the little goodies individually, you're near 8K. A near long block is like a near miss; have everything spelled out.

D.Hearne · Dec 4, 2006

1966conv said:
Allcarfan's pricing is pretty close to correct, but lets not forget, timing chain, timing cover, eccentric, thrust plate, lifters, spider, oil pump, oil pump shaft, water pump, thermostat housing and thermostat, flexplate damper and pulleys, ARP bolts. By the time you add all the little goodies individually, you're near 8K. A near long block is like a near miss; have everything spelled out.

All your "extra" parts are stuff the rest of us collect from various engines and save for future builds, most don't wear out and are completely reuseable.

Bullitt · Dec 4, 2006

95CobraStang said:
Hey Bullitt- what kind of power is your combo putting out??

It did 325 HP /317 TQ to the wheels with Performer RPM + 750cfm Edelbrock. Peak power was at 6500, peak torque at 4500, but had a really flat torque curve.

Haven't dynoed it yet with the EFI setup, but expect a little more of both probably in the 340ish range.

1966conv · Dec 5, 2006

D.Hearne said:
All your "extra" parts are stuff the rest of us collect from various engines and save for future builds, most don't wear out and are completely reuseable.

I agree 100%, (have 2 or 3 sets of most of those myself ) but since he was quoted $8300 for a long block less those 4 items; if you take the items from allcarfan's list and add for the missing pieces you get real close to 8K. With quality parts and a reputable builder, that's not a totally "unrealistic" price for a stroker. You can buy for less, sometimes you get what you pay for though.

I believe Keith Craft puts out a budget stroker for mid $5K last time I looked, but the word "budget" just makes me cringe when I think of something that high of HP made "less costly". It just brings to mind the motor grenading the first time I hit 6500 going down the straightaway or flooring it just after a turn.

allcarfan · Dec 5, 2006

D.Hearne said:
All your "extra" parts are stuff the rest of us collect from various engines and save for future builds, most don't wear out and are completely reuseable.

Exactly....and I never buy new unless I absolutely have to. If an engine is brand, spankin new...and a TURNKEY ENGINE...100% complete....I can see $8000. Remember though, the parts we are paying retail for, the builder is probably getting much cheaper. I sitll like the aluminum headed GT40 crate motor that makes 340hp with the right induction. With a different cam and a head port, that engine is a great bang for your buck!

I have less than $3300 in my engine....

331 stroker - ross pistons, eagle Hbeams, hawks racing crank ($600)
DSS girdle and windage tray($150)
Chromoly rings($35)
Bearings ($25)
Twisted Wedge Heads...mildly ported($900)
Scorpion Roller Rockers($100)
Xe274HR comp cams cam($150)
Ported RPM intake($75)
Cobra finned valve covers($45)
high flow water and oil pump($150)
Timing chain cover with pete jackson noisy gear drive($150)
chrome oil pan($65)
Assembled and balanced/machine work($500)
Chromoly pushrods($65)
spider/hold downs/lifters($75)
Gaskets ($150)
Roller BLock...$50 (junkyard)

I still need a carb though and I am sure I missed a part or two. So, lets conservatively say...$4000 into the engine...built for a small shot of nitrous and...hopefully...will make 325+ at the wheels with no bottle.

Max Power · Dec 5, 2006

allcarfan said:
Exactly....and I never buy new unless I absolutely have to. If an engine is brand, spankin new...and a TURNKEY ENGINE...100% complete....I can see $8000. Remember though, the parts we are paying retail for, the builder is probably getting much cheaper. I sitll like the aluminum headed GT40 crate motor that makes 340hp with the right induction. With a different cam and a head port, that engine is a great bang for your buck!

I have less than $3300 in my engine....

331 stroker - ross pistons, eagle Hbeams, hawks racing crank ($600)
DSS girdle and windage tray($150)
Chromoly rings($35)
Bearings ($25)
Twisted Wedge Heads...mildly ported($900)
Scorpion Roller Rockers($100)
Xe274HR comp cams cam($150)
Ported RPM intake($75)
Cobra finned valve covers($45)
high flow water and oil pump($150)
Timing chain cover with pete jackson noisy gear drive($150)
chrome oil pan($65)
Assembled and balanced/machine work($500)
Chromoly pushrods($65)
spider/hold downs/lifters($75)
Gaskets ($150)
Roller BLock...$50 (junkyard)

I still need a carb though and I am sure I missed a part or two. So, lets conservatively say...$4000 into the engine...built for a small shot of nitrous and...hopefully...will make 325+ at the wheels with no bottle.

Looks like you bought some stuff used....

allcarfan · Dec 5, 2006

allcarfan said:
Exactly....and I never buy new unless I absolutely have to.

Yes, Max Power...I did. Just as I said in my post right above yours I am particular about my used parts though.

95CobraStang · Dec 5, 2006

Maybe I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too...but all I want is a supercharged 302 block that pushes 400+rwhp and that is great to drive on the street (leave the suspension/braking/steering issues out as I will work on those most definitely)

Great to drive on the street means:
- 12+mpg city... 15+highway (keep in mind I will be running Ford EFI)
- Never dies on me
- Never overheats in the worst of stop-and-go traffic
- Drives well in any RPM

All these parts discussions and price variations are making me nuts!! I want AFR heads, a Kenne Bell supercharger, a mild cam with a slight lope, and EVERYTHING ELSE figured out. Maybe I'm lazy.

On another note, I must look/sound like a sucker to these engine builders... they are sure quoting me high prices.

bnickel · Dec 5, 2006

95CobraStang said:
Maybe I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too...but all I want is a supercharged 302 block that pushes 400+rwhp and that is great to drive on the street (leave the suspension/braking/steering issues out as I will work on those most definitely)

Great to drive on the street means:
- 12+mpg city... 15+highway (keep in mind I will be running Ford EFI)
- Never dies on me
- Never overheats in the worst of stop-and-go traffic
- Drives well in any RPM

All these parts discussions and price variations are making me nuts!! I want AFR heads, a Kenne Bell supercharger, a mild cam with a slight lope, and EVERYTHING ELSE figured out. Maybe I'm lazy.

On another note, I must look/sound like a sucker to these engine builders... they are sure quoting me high prices.

why not just build it yourself. it's not THAT hard to do.

95CobraStang · Dec 5, 2006

I worry about minor details that are actually MAJOR... adjustments, etc..

Maybe I'll look at some books and see what all is needed.

edgars23 · Dec 5, 2006

95CobraStang said:
Maybe I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too...but all I want is a supercharged 302 block that pushes 400+rwhp and that is great to drive on the street (leave the suspension/braking/steering issues out as I will work on those most definitely)

Not to sound rude, but 400+rwhp wont do you much good if you cant get it to the ground. Putting 400+rwhp in a car and driving it around with a stock/non-upgraded suspension and brake system isn't the smartest/safest thing to do. I am sure you are trying to work on it all simultaneously, but I just wanted to throw that out there.
With that said, the price you got doesn't seem to far fetched. I would expect to pay that for a shop that has a great reputation though. DSS, CHP and the other engine building places are well worth the money. Most of them do have huge turn around times. A friend wanted a 4.6 DOHC built for his 01 Cobra and they told him it would take almost a 3 month turn around. If you decide to go with one of these larger companies, make sure the turnaround time fits with your build up schedule.
My little 289 was built for around 3500. It is not forged, but I am hoping that it will come close to 300 rwhp when I put it on the dyno. If it doesn't, I'm sure a 50 or 75 shot will get me over the hump. Good luck and let us know what you decide on going with.
-Edgar

95CobraStang · Dec 5, 2006

Point definitely taken. I have the power disc brakes in my garage - just have to install them. So that avenue is covered for now (unless I find that I need a larger set up later on).

For chassis I plan a 4pt roll bar along with SFCs. We'll see what else is needed after I drive it a bit.

Suspension - I still need to get that one figured out. However I'm not in a hurry as it will be later on the list.

Basically, I just want to get the engine figured out. I plan on doing all supporting mods so I'm not worried in that are. I just want the damn engine!!!!

edgars23 · Dec 5, 2006

Why not just look into a roush or ford racing crate engine. They sell in the $6k & $7k range and would most likely be able to get you to your 400 rwhp goal. You just drop those thing in and the are complete from oil pan to intake, plus they usually come with a one year warranty. If you ordered one today, it would be able to be in an running just days after it arrives.
I personally liked building mine, it was fun. But if you insist on havign it yesterday, that is an option.

D.Hearne · Dec 5, 2006

95CobraStang said:
Maybe I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too..

Great to drive on the street means:
- 12+mpg city... 15+highway (keep in mind I will be running Ford EFI)
- Never dies on me
- Never overheats in the worst of stop-and-go traffic
- Drives well in any RPM
.

The 331 I built does all that and with 3 Holley carbs. In the Ranger with a Toploader 4 speed, 3.73 rear with 28" tires it got 12 mpg with my foot in it and 16 driving conservatively on the highway. Power came in at 1500 and pulled like a freight train to 6500.

D.Hearne · Dec 5, 2006

1966conv said:
I believe Keith Craft puts out a budget stroker for mid $5K last time I looked, but the word "budget" just makes me cringe when I think of something that high of HP made "less costly". It just brings to mind the motor grenading the first time I hit 6500 going down the straightaway or flooring it just after a turn.

I'd buy a Keith Craft "budget build" before I'd consider something from someone else. He doesn't build crap. I spent $3500 on my 331 and it had plenty of budget parts and never grenaded in almost a year of daily floggings. Cast crank, I beam SIR rods, stock block, yada, yada, yada..........................

allcarfan · Dec 6, 2006

a few options:

Option 1:
Ford GT40 crate motor...rated at 345hp....I think they are $3000 for the long block.

Buy Custom ground supercharger cam.

Add supercharger and EFI induction...good exhaust....You will make 400 to the wheels. Only problem is, I dont think the pistons in the gt40 crate are forged. If you keep boost in the 8psi range, you will be ok.

Option 2:
Buy a very low mileage 306 from someone (they are all over and most have forged pistons)

Add AFR 185 heads and custom ground camshaft (just make sure the pistons have reliefs cut in them)

Add supercharger and EFI induction....you WILL make over 400 at the wheels.

I am not sure why you want to stroke AND boost your engine when you only want to make 400 at the wheels. You can do that with either or, rather than both. Just something to think about.

95CobraStang · Dec 6, 2006

You hit on my original plan. The stroker idea came from the engine builders.

What about the E cam? That works for a S/C right?

Another similar idea- maybe a 351 FRPP crate with low boost.

1966conv · Dec 6, 2006

I have the E cam with EFI, and Twisted Wedge heads. The best dyno I've had is near 283 RWHP. The S/C and AFR's should get you some more, but I can't give you any idea on how much.

allcarfan · Dec 6, 2006

If you are going with a SC...fork out the extra dough for a custom ground camshaft.

Engine question (having someone build me one...making sure he isnt feeding me B.S)

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