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Build Thread Enola- Finishing touches

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a91what

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hoopty5.0 said:
If you're going to turbo it, I wouldn't even bother with keeping the M90. A 70mm will make enough steam to split your block with little effort
Click to expand...
I know! But I will simply keep this little blower on here, its a street car and with the torque it makes the thing is a real handful. It's fun to drive and anywhere I go it's a conversation starter people always assume I did a mod swap. I'm gonna just make the best of it.
 
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2000xp8

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a91what said:
May I ask what kind of boost are you getting?
Click to expand...
6-7psi

If you prefer the way the eaton delivers power, i'd consider a KB before going compound boost.
With the placement of the SC and all the bracketry you have now, you would probably be starting over completely. You would have to handle all the headaches of the turbo setup combined with an sc that is not going to replace the intake which is typically how it's done leaving much more room.

You might even have to put the turbo behind the drivers seat like a guy here did a few years ago, lol (this is a joke, pics of the nightmare are somewhere on stangnet)
Somebody here probably knows where to find it.
 
Last edited: Oct 6, 2016

a91what

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Anyone have a line on the nonslip pulleys? Or is there a way I can mod my pulley myself? I have been trying to find the slash cut kind but can't seem to find one....

Belt dressing would likely help as well.... any other product I might try?
 

A5literMan

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@madmike1157 probably has some left over glue

I'm no help on the pulleys/belt slip issue.
 
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Gearbanger 101

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a91what said:
Anyone have a line on the nonslip pulleys? Or is there a way I can mod my pulley myself? I have been trying to find the slash cut kind but can't seem to find one....

Belt dressing would likely help as well.... any other product I might try?
Click to expand...
Here's the problem with "non slip" pulleys. They work well and do what they were intended to do.....but only to a point. If your belt is just on the edge of slipping with a standard pulley, the non slip will help....but if its slipping badly with your current pulley diameter, its still likely to slip with the "non slip" style pulley. There problem there is, the non slip pulleys tend to act like meat grinders when they do slip and will make short work of your accessory belt in a hurry. In your case, that's a bad thing, because you're running a single belt system. I would seriously consider just bumping up the blower pulley diameter for now to reduce the slippage....and if you don't think it's spinning fast enough, save your pennies for an overdrive crank pulley. Innovators West, or ASP may make something to fit your needs. The problem with this, is that you may run interference with your water pump pulley. I believe the Cobra water pump pulley may be a smaller diamter, which will give you a little more room to grow on a crank pulley....or you could forgo a water pump pulley altogether and run an electric water pump. Anyway you slice it though, it's going to cost you money.

I personally think a major reason an M90 kit for the 5.0L OHV engine didn't take off wasn't so much performance limitations, but packaging. It's just so much work trying to get than little sucker to spin the way you want it to. An MPx case and inlet when spun hard enough will easily keep up with any of the horsepower capabilities of the twin screw offerings for this engine......but spinning them as fast as they need to be spun can't be done without an independent pulley system.

My only other suggestion to help control belt slip would be to convert your entire set up to an 8-rib pulley design, from the current 6-rib. This will add some traction to the pulley as well as open you up to some of the pulley offerings the Supercoupe guys have. If your blower set up was independent, you could even consider a cogged pulley system....but they've got to be darn near perfect alignment was and completely flex free to work on the street.
 

a91what

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Gearbanger 101 said:
Here's the problem with "non slip" pulleys. They work well and do what they were intended to do.....but only to a point. If your belt is just on the edge of slipping with a standard pulley, the non slip will help....but if its slipping badly with your current pulley diameter, its still likely to slip with the "non slip" style pulley. There problem there is, the non slip pulleys tend to act like meat grinders when they do slip and will make short work of your accessory belt in a hurry. In your case, that's a bad thing, because you're running a single belt system. I would seriously consider just bumping up the blower pulley diameter for now to reduce the slippage....and if you don't think it's spinning fast enough, save your pennies for an overdrive crank pulley. Innovators West, or ASP may make something to fit your needs. The problem with this, is that you may run interference with your water pump pulley. I believe the Cobra water pump pulley may be a smaller diamter, which will give you a little more room to grow on a crank pulley....or you could forgo a water pump pulley altogether and run an electric water pump. Anyway you slice it though, it's going to cost you money.

I personally think a major reason an M90 kit for the 5.0L OHV engine didn't take off wasn't so much performance limitations, but packaging. It's just so much work trying to get than little sucker to spin the way you want it to. An MPx case and inlet when spun hard enough will easily keep up with any of the horsepower capabilities of the twin screw offerings for this engine......but spinning them as fast as they need to be spun can't be done without an independent pulley system.

My only other suggestion to help control belt slip would be to convert your entire set up to an 8-rib pulley design, from the current 6-rib. This will add some traction to the pulley as well as open you up to some of the pulley offerings the Supercoupe guys have. If your blower set up was independent, you could even consider a cogged pulley system....but they've got to be darn near perfect alignment was and completely flex free to work on the street.
Click to expand...
I was looking to slash cut the 2.2 inch pulley rather than the 1.9 I think the 1.9 is just too small 9 pounds of boost is great but I'd rather have a nice even boost curve. There may be a glimmer of hope for adding one of the Vortec style pulley I actually have the pulleys installed backwards right now that way there closer to the supercharger case for pulley alignment I believe my flipping the pulley around and using an 8 rib pulley it may almost perfectly line up it may just be a matter of shimming the bracket I'll take some measurements later today if the Hurricanes not right on top of me and let you know. I believe I have a 2.6 inch 8 rib pulley sitting on the shelf match that with an 8-inch Vortech lower and I might just be in business
 
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a91what

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And I just want to say that everyone is crazy at my new job. The wind speed is 40 miles an hour I just got done climbing to the top of SheiKra roller coaster it's two hundred feet to The Landing I was standing on then I had to get a ladder to change a proximity switch
 

Gearbanger 101

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a91what said:
I believe I have a 2.6 inch 8 rib pulley sitting on the shelf match that with an 8-inch Vortech lower and I might just be in business
Click to expand...
Are you planning on the 8-rib crank pulley, or the 8-inch crank pulley?

Not sure how much wrap you're getting, but comparatively....Vortech guys have to really crank on the tension with that small of a pulley. Not sure how much work is involved in spinning a Vortech head unit in comparison to the Eaton?
 

a91what

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Well that's a no-go I would still have to modify all my brackets you would only get me two belt notches. Another thing I just realized when I put my new alternator on I did not shorten the belt it has an overdrive pulley on it that's significantly smaller than the original. Consequently when I reinstalled the supercharger after rebuilding it I was kind of in a rush and did not get the pulley alignment perfect. So let's factor in a loose belt and a misaligned pulley let me get these two items sorted out along with beefing up my brackets before we go any further on anything else I'm going to try to get one of those Gates Green belts for the system as well. Hopefully with these three changes I won't see such a dramatic belt slip then we can revisit the grip pulley.
 
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a91what

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I'm also on the path to get better economy out of this thing as well. My system has a flaw that I would like to address mainly under Cruise conditions when you tip into the throttle the bypass valve closes in the car comes up on Boost until everything equalizes. As little as a 2% change and TPS value can cause this to happen. So I'm thinking that I can remedy this with a solenoid valve and a check valve.

The check valve will go in-line between manifold and bypass so that once it's in vacuum it stays there. Then the solenoid will be T'd into the system after the check valve, this will allow the vacuum to be purged to atmosphere (closing the bypass and allowing boost to build)...

What I'm wondering is, can anyone see any flaw in the idea.
@jrichker -I'm thinking a small check valve for the smog pump system and a tad or tab valve Any suggestions?
 

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a91what said:
I'm also on the path to get better economy out of this thing as well. My system has a flaw that I would like to address mainly under Cruise conditions when you tip into the throttle the bypass valve closes in the car comes up on Boost until everything equalizes. As little as a 2% change and TPS value can cause this to happen. So I'm thinking that I can remedy this with a solenoid valve and a check valve.

The check valve will go in-line between manifold and bypass so that once it's in vacuum it stays there. Then the solenoid will be T'd into the system after the check valve, this will allow the vacuum to be purged to atmosphere (closing the bypass and allowing boost to build)...

What I'm wondering is, can anyone see any flaw in the idea.
@jrichker -I'm thinking a small check valve for the smog pump system and a tad or tab valve Any suggestions?
Click to expand...

I went and tested the bypass/dump valve, the first valve after the smog pump. With pressure applied or no vacuum present, it dumps the output of the smog pump output to the bottom to open air. That makes sense since at WOT, there is very little vacuum to operate anything. Drive a mid 50's vintage Ford and you'll se what I mean. When you floor the accelerator, the vacuum operated windshield wipers quit working.

There is a check valve in the vacuum line for the A/C & Heater air controls so that it holds vacuum when you got to WOT and keeps the A/C & Heater air flow from changing.

The following are diagrams courtesy of Tmoss & Stang&2birds

HVAC vacuum diagram


See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host) for help on 88-95 wiring; http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/ Everyone should bookmark this site.

94-95 Mustang wiring diagrams
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/#95-95Diagrams

Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 91-93 Mass Air Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/91-93_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif

Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 88-91 Mass Air Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif

Ignition switch wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/IgnitionSwitchWiring.gif

Fuel, alternator, A/C and ignition wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif

O2 sensor wiring harness
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustangO2Harness.gif

Vacuum diagram 89-93 Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustangFoxFordVacuumDiagram.jpg

HVAC vacuum diagram
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/Mustang_AC_heat_vacuum_controls.gif

TFI module differences & pin out
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/TFI_5.0_comparison.gif

Fuse box layout
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/MustangFuseBox.gif

Mustang 5.0 Lights and Radio schematic, by TMoss:
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustangFoxLights-Radio_diag.gif

87-92 power window wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustang87-92 PowerWindowWiring.gif

93 power window wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustang93PowerWindows.gif

T5 Cutaway showing T5 internal parts
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/5_Speed_Cutaway_Illustrated.jpg

Visual comparison of the Ford Fuel Injectors, picture by TMoss:
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/Ford_Injector_Guide.jpg

Convertible top motor wiring http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustang88VertTopMotorCkt.gif

Engine mounted fuel injector harness
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustangEngineHarness.gif

Location of the TPS, IAB, and the 10-pin connectors on a 5.0, picture by TMoss:
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/TPS_IAB_Pic.jpg

Starter circuit
http://forums.stangnet.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=21328&d=1080916057
 
Last edited: Oct 11, 2016

a91what

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I've been doing a lot of reading on the super Coupe forums while I've been on vacation. I have a generation 1 oval port M90 supercharger that I home ported. It would seem that I have literally hit the brick wall with this blower all of the super coupe guys made 370 torque 270 horsepower with Max effort builds with my blower. The Boost drop off it's because of the efficiency of the blower dropping off like a cliff at 5000 RPM I'm seeing a 20% efficiency. However there is a build in the archive showing how to mod the blower to resemble MPX case. I'm going to give it a shot this will either let me make significantly more power or it will be a total fail
 
Last edited: Oct 13, 2016
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90sickfox

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I've got a friend that has a m112 off of a lightening. I gave it to him so he can't charge me too much.
 

Gearbanger 101

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a91what said:
I'm also on the path to get better economy out of this thing as well. My system has a flaw that I would like to address mainly under Cruise conditions when you tip into the throttle the bypass valve closes in the car comes up on Boost until everything equalizes. As little as a 2% change and TPS value can cause this to happen. So I'm thinking that I can remedy this with a solenoid valve and a check valve.

The check valve will go in-line between manifold and bypass so that once it's in vacuum it stays there. Then the solenoid will be T'd into the system after the check valve, this will allow the vacuum to be purged to atmosphere (closing the bypass and allowing boost to build)...

What I'm wondering is, can anyone see any flaw in the idea.
@jrichker -I'm thinking a small check valve for the smog pump system and a tad or tab valve Any suggestions?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure what you're saying here? Why would you think the TPS has anything to do with your bypass valve? The bypass valve is vacuum operated and has nothing at all to do with the throttle position? You could, if you were ginger enough with the accelerator pedal bring the engine all the way up to wide open throttle, without making any boost at all.

I'm still adamant that you're grossly over spinning that blower. Get yourself a 2.7" or so blower pulley and see how it likes it. Like I said....I made 9-10psi and almost 350rwhp with a 2.5" blower pulley with my old 4.6L with an M90S and did it with a stock diameter crank pulley....which on a mod motor is about 6.8" if I remember right? I'm certain you're either experiencing serious belt slip, or some level of airflow cavitation.

And if it's that sensitive to throttle changes that it's closing the bypass valve with the tiniest amount of throttle, swapping out to a large pulley might do wonders to smooth things out in that area as well.

As for turning a Gen 1 M90 into an MPx.....I don't think it's physically possible without some serious welding. If you'll notice the pics of the two side by side I posted on the previous page, a standard Gen 1, through 3 Eaton M90 just doesn't have the real estate to work with on the inlet side. For the amount of welding you'd have to do, you could almost certainly guaranteed case warpage by the time you were finished,
 

a91what

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I'm not sure what you're saying here? Why would you think the TPS has anything to do with your bypass valve? The bypass valve is vacuum operated and has nothing at all to do with the throttle position? You could, if you were ginger enough with the accelerator pedal bring the engine all the way up to wide open throttle, without making any boost at all.
Yes.. it is vacuum operated.. and off of a mini cooper and closes at 8inhg.
Cruising I make 12inhg from my data logs (build my own ecu and tune my own car, just using figures from extrapolated data) a slight tip in during cruise will cause the bypass to close. I want to eliminate this by using a solenoid to "lock" it open until I have 50% tps or so. (Have an idea)


I'm still adamant that you're grossly over spinning that blower. Get yourself a 2.7" or so blower pulley and see how it likes it. Like I said....I made 9-10psi and almost 350rwhp with a 2.5" blower pulley with my old 4.6L with an M90S and did it with a stock diameter crank pulley....which on a mod motor is about 6.8" if I remember right? I'm certain you're either experiencing serious belt slip, or some level of airflow cavitation.
No doubt I am going to give it a try. However an s-port m90 is wayyyy more efficient than my oval port, with the 10% pulley it came with I made 2psi... I will revisit this however as many many things have changed with the build.

And if it's that sensitive to throttle changes that it's closing the bypass valve with the tiniest amount of throttle, swapping out to a large pulley might do wonders to smooth things out in that area as well.
Hopefully you are correct.

As for turning a Gen 1 M90 into an MPx.....I don't think it's physically possible without some serious welding. If you'll notice the pics of the two side by side I posted on the previous page, a standard Gen 1, through 3 Eaton M90 just doesn't have the real estate to work with on the inlet side. For the amount of welding you'd have to do, you could almost certainly guaranteed case warpage by the time you were finished.
Not welding well not full welding... first cut, then fit the aluminum pieces to create the new mouth and sealing area. Then tack weld let fully cool, surface the flange area, bolt on the inlet and a few more tack welds. Then the epoxy for a full seal. This gives me the best chance to avoid warpage.
 

a91what

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90sickfox said:
I've got a friend that has a m112 off of a lightening. I gave it to him so he can't charge me too much.
Click to expand...
Maybe.... that would require me build a custom manifold and swap to EDIS.... there is no way it would fit in the current SC location....


Now I could fit a second m90 under the hood and plumb it in with the first.... but I think my head would explode.
 
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CarMichael Angelo

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,
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You know I read everything you write. (Well except the calculus techno-theory stuff),...not that, but everything else.
I give you big props because I see a guy that decides to build a roots SC system from what I'm assuming is almost nothing in expense compared to the $5k kits that are out there.

Because you do it yoursellf.

But I gotta tell ya that not only are you doing it yourself,......You're doing it to yourself as well. Alot of the stuff I btchd about on my thread was self-inflicted. I chose to do the stupid sht that I did....on purpose.
Again,..because I can completely empathize with you,...I'm giving you big brownie points.

But .....I think the horse you're riding is at his limit, and if you want to get the mail delivered, you need to stop and get a fresh one.

If you pivot from here and keep working that blower you're only undoing what you've spent a year to do only to have to come back around and deal with the same issues that you are currently experiencing. In other words if a belt is slipping now, it's gonna slip then.

Unless you reconfigure the drive system to try and get a bigger (wider) pulley and fixed tensioners now,..what's gonna happen when/if you manage to get the current huffer to make more boost, more efficiently? If you go through the re-vamp on the front drive now, and see what you got as a start point and build on a known solution to eliminate belt slip (8 rib pulley w/ lock-able tensioners ala Terminator) then the belt slip issue becomes a non-issue.

If after that you choose to mod that blower case and pick up some more power then you won't be having to look at a slipping belt as a possible crutch to it making it's full potential.

But even after all of that.....even after you score a victory trying to make a blower rated to feed a 6 hole engine make decent power on an 8 hole version...even after you've spent hours and hours and what ever monies trying to make all of that work, you get what? 325-350 HP?

I get that you want the talking point, and I get that you got the mad scientist thing going on that you gotta address,..but how much more daily driver friendly is this thing gonna be the more convoluted you make it? When you start relying on solenoids to hold vacuum valves open/closed based on TPS percentage Bypass thing-a-majigs to re-direct boost wherever it has to go to circumvent this or that ding-dang-deal . When you have to have a lifted car to even have a prayer of seeing the driver side spark plugs much less get any of them out....I watch, and ask myself.......Why is he making it so hard on himself?

A single 70mm TC like Collin offered will make power to exceed the block integrity w/o even trying. Twin 57's will do the same with a faster spool.

Somebody w/ your capabilities, a computer and a smart phone ( so you can order the sht off of Ebay) could make a very impressive TC system that will satisfy all of your multiple personalities for rearry cheap Chinee dollah, and then You makie big merican powah.

Stop bumping your head.
 
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hoopty5.0

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  • #938
We need a mic drop smiley.

*edit - or dare I say.... Mike drop?


See what I did there?
 
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stykthyn

I want to measure mine. It doesn't look that tall.
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Price tag aside, what's keeping you from moving up to a tvs or similarly larger blower?
 

a91what

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stykthyn said:
Price tag aside, what's keeping you from moving up to a tvs or similarly larger blower?
Click to expand...
Nothing. Even an m112 off a Jag would work. But they all cost money lots of money
 
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