Ethanol question..

[SilverBullet00]

So last night I was filling up at a brand new quick trip in town. After My tank was about half full I saw a sticker on the pump that said "May contain up to 10% ethenol". Is all gas like this now, and I just hadn't noticed? Or should I not get gas at this quick trip any more?

This might be a dumb question, but I haven't noticed that sticker before... and I really dont want to blow my motor up

 

[98COBRA281]

thats how must of the pumps are around here too, ive also noticed that when i have a few gallons around the house for the lawn mower and stuff, it goes bad alot faster too

 

[streethorse]

Thats all I see around where I live is the 10% ethanol. Ive been running
nothing but the 10%..... seems to run just fine.

 

[SilverBullet00]

CRAP, I need to get a wideband and check out my A/F... I need to pay closer attention to these things!

 

[LaserSVT]

CRAP, I need to get a wideband and check out my A/F... I need to pay closer attention to these things!

It wont cause any dammage at all. The only real downside to E10 is a slight decrease in mileage, usually 1-2 mpg
Also as pointed out it does not store well.

 

[d98gt]

Yep..We've been running it for quite some time. Gas doesn't even smell like gas anymore (if that makes any sense )

 

[CobraRed_96_GT]

(knowlege is limited to west coast) 10% ethanol is used in winter gas along with MTBE, ETBE and other oxygenating compounds. This is for emissions reasons, winter means lower temperatures which means the higher boiling-point hyrocarbons of summer gas get less burnt off. E10 is used as a burn stabilizer along with other additives to create oxygenating effects then coupled with further processing to ensure winter gas is as close to a summer gas burn rate as possible - so they aren't trying to short you; it's just impossible from a physics standpoint to formulate a winter mixture and have is stretch as long as the summer mixture since oxygen-bearing compounds displace fuel components, so it takes more fuel to get the job done.

Normal gasoline has a stoichiometric ratio of 14.7:1, reformulated winter fuel runs between 14.3 and 14.4:1,"

This coupled with more expensive winter gas (cuz it's more expensive to make reformulated winter gas than normal, summer fuel) and increased oil viscosity, low cranking voltage in the battery, atmospheric condensation in underground fuel tanks and so forth all cause some gripe from winter fuel users.

The upside: We shouldn't be complaining! Stabilizers and oxygenators are good for performance, especially a tuned car trying to avoid detonation! MTBE itself has a mean octane over 108. This is put in to help acceleration and cold starting in cold/moist climates. Nitromethane and propylene oxide (the latter even being banned by lots of racing divisions for its benefits) are added as well to boost an oxygenated mixture up 50% over the 2.8% oxy summer mixtures. So all this means more power, a more stable burn, and a lil less fuel economy with a lil higher prices - i say we make this a year around medley!

Hope that helps clear up some questions about it.

Also, that sign that says "may contain E10" - that's most likely talking about winter gas as well - so don't check you A/F just yet unless you were tuned on winter gas.

 

[SilverBullet00]

I didnt think we had "winter gas" in Kansas? I thought only northern states got that? Hell, I dont know... I just had never seen that on a pump before here.

And I thought when you ran ethenol you had to run bigger injectors? I know it has a higher octane rating, but I thought you needed more of it in the combustion chamber.. I could be wrong, I never really paid attention to all the post's about ethenol because there is only one station in town that sells E85 ....

 

[CobraRed_96_GT]

I didnt think we had "winter gas" in Kansas? I thought only northern states got that? Hell, I dont know... I just had never seen that on a pump before here.

And I thought when you ran ethenol you had to run bigger injectors? I know it has a higher octane rating, but I thought you needed more of it in the combustion chamber.. I could be wrong, I never really paid attention to all the post's about ethenol because there is only one station in town that sells E85 ....

the E10 blend isn't going to require a bigger fuel system. The winter gas is applicable even to Cali where it's usually warm. When i went to company meetings it sounded like this was the deal for the whole country as far as oxygenating winter fuel.

 

[RedDaemon]

my area has had it for like 10 years now. dont worry about it

 

[Mikie]

Check out this for some more info...
E85 Mustangs.com - dedicated to E85 Fuel for the Mustang

 

[DBMSTNG]

It wont cause any dammage at all. The only real downside to E10 is a slight decrease in mileage, usually 1-2 mpg
Also as pointed out it does not store well.

not true. ethonal has a different stoich than regular gas. having even 10% ethonal messes up the stoich of regular gas. supercharged and turbo'd cars with aftermarket tunes could have damaging detonation.

 

[CobraRed_96_GT]

Right the stoichiometry is changed, but i dunno what you mean "messes up". If you're pulling a lot of timing and are tuned on regular gas then it's something to look into how it effects your tune, but the gas itself is not going to be prone to detonation.

 

[blubullett]

The octane rating is for what comes out the pump. Dont worry about it.

 

[Pearl02]

I didnt think we had "winter gas" in Kansas? I thought only northern states got that? Hell, I dont know... I just had never seen that on a pump before here.

And I thought when you ran ethenol you had to run bigger injectors? I know it has a higher octane rating, but I thought you needed more of it in the combustion chamber.. I could be wrong, I never really paid attention to all the post's about ethenol because there is only one station in town that sells E85 ....

Yea, we have summer and winter gas in KC. I work for a large gas pipeline that handles both fuels. For emission purposes during the summer the rvp or Reid Vapor Pressure is lower in KC durning the summer. During the winter the rvp of gas is raised up quite abit. During the summer the rvp is about 6.7 and the winter it's about 15.0 pounds. I don't know about the fuel vapor pressure in Wichita. During the summer we also handle gasoline with a vapor pressure up to 9.0 pounds. This fuel can only be supplied to cities outside of the KC area. I believe that E10 is a nation wide mandate of the clean air act of 1996. Regardless of what experts say, I lost about 2 mpg with E10. Pearl02.

 

[Pearl02]

Yea, we have summer and winter gas in KC. I work for a large gas pipeline that handles both fuels. For emission purposes during the summer the rvp or Reid Vapor Pressure is lower in KC durning the summer. During the winter the rvp of gas is raised up quite abit. During the summer the rvp is about 6.7 and the winter it's about 15.0 pounds. I don't know about the fuel vapor pressure in Wichita. During the summer we also handle gasoline with a vapor pressure up to 9.0 pounds. This fuel can only be supplied to cities outside of the KC area. I believe that E10 is a nation wide mandate of the clean air act of 1996. Regardless of what experts say, I lost about 2 mpg with E10. Pearl02.

Additionally, MTBE and ETBE have been banned in Kansas and Missouri because they are a known carcinogen. The fear is how easy they mix with ground water that could eventaully make it's way to city drinking water. Pearl02.

 

[bhuff30]

As others stated, E10 is no problem. In fact, manufactures knew E10 would become more and more common and purposely designed your car to run fine on E10 mixes. Most cars can run significantly more ethanol with no problem. Despite what others say, you will not loose 1-2mpg on E10. In fact, you may even gain a slight bit of mileage because the burn will be more complete.
This spring, I had E20 and E30 available to me (Lawrence, Kansas). I ran quite a bit of E30 through my 97GT. The wideband readings were identical to running streight gasoline. The computer can and does compensate for different fuels. In fact, most modern cars will run fine on ethanol mixtures upwards of 40-60%.
The laws very by state, but in some states, the pumps are not required to state if you are running E10 or not. As you can expect, some stations will display this while others don't. You may be running E10 all the time and you'd never know it.

 

[Pearl02]

As others stated, E10 is no problem. In fact, manufactures knew E10 would become more and more common and purposely designed your car to run fine on E10 mixes. Most cars can run significantly more ethanol with no problem. Despite what others say, you will not loose 1-2mpg on E10. In fact, you may even gain a slight bit of mileage because the burn will be more complete.
This spring, I had E20 and E30 available to me (Lawrence, Kansas). I ran quite a bit of E30 through my 97GT. The wideband readings were identical to running streight gasoline. The computer can and does compensate for different fuels. In fact, most modern cars will run fine on ethanol mixtures upwards of 40-60%.
The laws very by state, but in some states, the pumps are not required to state if you are running E10 or not. As you can expect, some stations will display this while others don't. You may be running E10 all the time and you'd never know it.

I did lose almost 2 miles per gallon on a recent trip. I noticed my milage was going down on other trips. Gas in KC Missouri is cheaper than gas in KC Kansas. I was buying gas in KC MO since I live near the state line. At that time Kansas wasn't pushing E10. Missouri already had E10. Once I figured this out I started to onnly buy gas in Kansas. My milage went back up. Now Kansas has mandated E10 and my milage is down again. I don't know about your car. I can only vouche for my car. I keep a strict eye on gas milage as it could tell you other potential problems. Just my opnion and a little science behind it. Pearl02.

 

[bhuff30]

Dunno how to explain your experience. Maybe ethanol makes you angry, so you are more likely to punch it when running the E10.

About 2 years ago, was driving between KC and Lawrence in the summer. I did a back to back test of a pure gasoline tank and then an E10 tank. The mileage was within 0.1 or 0.2 mpg, which is much great than the margin of error of filling the tank.

When I started playing with E30, my mileage dropped by a little less than 1mpg (from high 19s to low 19s). That corresponds well with published data I've seen on tests with E20 and E30. Most cars stay within 3% of their origional fuel mileage, even when running E30. Yes, it doesn't make exact sense from an energy balance point of view... but they believe it is because the ethanol promotes a more complete burn.

I did lose almost 2 miles per gallon on a recent trip. I noticed my milage was going down on other trips. Gas in KC Missouri is cheaper than gas in KC Kansas. I was buying gas in KC MO since I live near the state line. At that time Kansas wasn't pushing E10. Missouri already had E10. Once I figured this out I started to onnly buy gas in Kansas. My milage went back up. Now Kansas has mandated E10 and my milage is down again. I don't know about your car. I can only vouche for my car. I keep a strict eye on gas milage as it could tell you other potential problems. Just my opnion and a little science behind it. Pearl02.

 

[Pearl02]

Dunno how to explain your experience. Maybe ethanol makes you angry, so you are more likely to punch it when running the E10.

About 2 years ago, was driving between KC and Lawrence in the summer. I did a back to back test of a pure gasoline tank and then an E10 tank. The mileage was within 0.1 or 0.2 mpg, which is much great than the margin of error of filling the tank.

When I started playing with E30, my mileage dropped by a little less than 1mpg (from high 19s to low 19s). That corresponds well with published data I've seen on tests with E20 and E30. Most cars stay within 3% of their origional fuel mileage, even when running E30. Yes, it doesn't make exact sense from an energy balance point of view... but they believe it is because the ethanol promotes a more complete burn.

I think your right. It's not me but my car doesn't like Ethanol. I could go on about Ethanol because I do handle it. One thing I do know and have seen is while Ethanol does burn cleaner it doesn't yield the same btu's or energy released as gasoline when combusted. I don't know. Maybe this could one reason I'm seeing a milage drop. It has good quality such as increased octane levels, burns cleaner and absorb water from the tank. It's not bad stuff at all. In my case, it seems to effect my gas milage. Pearl02