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Fatman Fabrications dropped spindles

  • Thread starter Thread starter jayman
  • Start date Start date Apr 17, 2008
J

jayman

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Dec 12, 2006
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Apr 17, 2008
#1
  • Apr 17, 2008
  • #1
Okay, I had to try them as the long awaited CSRP dropped spindles are still vaporware. So I called Fatman and asked a couple of questions before ordering them. These are spindles designed to use the Granada/Maverick disc brake setup. Maverick and 71-77 comets share the same upper / lower control arms as 67-73 Mustangs and share the same spindle dimensions, etc.

Q: What tie rod ends do you need to use with these spindles?
A: '65 - '73 Mustang tie rod ends.

After explaining that there are several different tie rod ends for the '65 - '73 Mustangs, I convinced the salesman to ask someone else for the correct answer.

A. Maverick or Comet tie rod ends.

Okay so far.

Q: What is the difference in the spindle pin height from a stock Maverick or Comet spindle?
A: 2.5 inches

Q: What other items am I going to have to change or modify to install these onto a stock Maverick?
A: Nothing. These are a direct bolt on with no mods required. You should check the steering arm for interference if you are using a deep wheel.

Q: Gee, seems almost to good to be true. So What is the total to ship these to me?
A: $580 plus $48 shipping. (the website lists $540)

So I received them Tuesday and mocked them up in my rims to make sure there would be no problems with the tires and wheels. Everything looked good.

This afternoon, I decided to remove my stock spindles, rotors and calipers and install the new spindles. Disassembly went smooth, just as expected. Then the fun began.

First problem that i noticed is that there is no provision for you to use your splash shields. No mounting holes, etc. Okay, I live in SoCal, it never rains, I can make due until I can have a machinist friend drill and tap the required holes for me.

Second problem was trying to mount the rotors. The rotors were touching the end of the lower control arms. This required some "persuading" with a 3 lb. tack hammer to allow the required clearance.

Next problem was mounting the calipers. The problem here started with the brake line running directly into the upper ball joint stud. Since the brake lines are a solid tube for approximately 2" from the caliper, there was no way to bend or modify the brake lines to clear the ball joint stud. Since the upper and lowers are in really sad shape on this car, I simply cut off the extra length on the stud. (This is a temporary hack job.) I will have to have new brake lines made to route around the stud for a permanent installation.

Next problem had to do with the holes for the brake calipers not being drilled true. If you started the bottom bolt first, the upper bolt hole was 1/4 of the hole diameter out of alignment with the calipers. This required a little massaging with a rat tailed file to create the clearance to bolt the calipers to the spindle. Ideally, these holes should be welded up and redrilled in the proper location and angle.

Okay, calipers mounted. Turn the steering wheel. Uh-oh. You can only turn the wheels about 10 degrees either way before the top of the caliper hits the upper control arm on the back of the control arm. Get out the cut-off wheel and trim the control arm to create the required clearance. (Did I mention that the upper and lower control arms are in really sad shape and need to be replaced SOON?) Finally, everything is mounted, tight, and clears every other thing.

Mount the wheels, take a turn around the neighborhood at very slow speed listening for any noises, feeling for any thing strange, etc. Noticed right off the bat that I now see cars in the rear view mirror rather than asphalt. Also noticed that the car turns much easier than with the stock spindles. Apparently, these spindles have a shorter steering arm and have dramatically decreased both steering effort (on a manual steering car) and turning radius.

So over all, construction quality could use a little improvement. These components were never tried on a stock suspension before. If they had been then they would have known that stock control arms will not work with these spindles. I will try to get access to Global West and Control Freaks tubular uppers to see if they work any better with those control arms.

Stock type GVM brake lines will hit the upper ball joint stud and cause you not to be able to mount the calipers. Custom brake lines are required.

You will have to drill and tap the holes for the splash shields yourself if you want to run them.

You will have problems with the calipers mounting to the spindles until you correct the mounting holes.

The return policy only allows returns of "parts that have not been installed". So if you choose to purchase from Fatman Fabrications, the policy is "if you buy it, you own it". Since none of these problems would have shown up until you were actually mocking up the parts, you would have already "passed the point of no return" so to speak.

The pluses are:

Full suspension travel with full springs, full range of motion on the shocks and a 2" drop in the front end. Also tighter turning radius and decreased steering effort for manual steer cars.
 
S

SNAKEPILOT

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Jul 8, 2005
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Apr 17, 2008
#2
  • Apr 17, 2008
  • #2
Do you have any pictures? The one photo in Fatman's catalog is worthless. I spoke with Fatman earlier this week. I had originally heard that the spindles where cut and welded Granada spindles. Fatman said they were not, that they are fabrictaed in house (welded not cast/forged). They also said the hub was new and not the same as the Granada hub. Granada rotors work but other rotors would not? I asked if after market brakes like my Wilwoods designed for 70-73 Mustang/Granada spindles would work and was told no. Fatman offers a Wilwood "upgrade" but that is for the caliper only. You are locked into the Granada 11" rotor.
A 2.5" drop is significant. What springs are you using? Wheel and tire size? Fender clearance issues?
 
1

10secgoal

Active Member
Dec 1, 2003
2,801
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49
San Diego
Apr 17, 2008
#3
  • Apr 17, 2008
  • #3
Time to talk to the CC company. Not only couldn't find out until installed, you asked all the right questions and was lied to as far as I can see.
 
J

jayman

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Dec 12, 2006
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Apr 17, 2008
#4
  • Apr 17, 2008
  • #4
"
Do you have any pictures? The one photo in Fatman's catalog is worthless. I spoke with Fatman earlier this week. I had originally heard that the spindles where cut and welded Granada spindles. Fatman said they were not, that they are fabrictaed in house (welded not cast/forged). They also said the hub was new and not the same as the Granada hub. Granada rotors work but other rotors would not? I asked if after market brakes like my Wilwoods designed for 70-73 Mustang/Granada spindles would work and was told no. Fatman offers a Wilwood "upgrade" but that is for the caliper only. You are locked into the Granada 11" rotor.
A 2.5" drop is significant. What springs are you using? Wheel and tire size? Fender clearance issues?"

The spindles are indeed fabricated. 1/2 inch plate with a steel pin pressed into it.

I have attached a picture that shows part of the spindle construction as well as one of the problems. The welding is good, construction is solid. I can't answer the question about the spindle pin itself fitting any other kits. I was changing from a stock Maverick disc spindle to these so have no easy access to another setup at this time.

I have a set of progressive coils from Pro Motorsports installed. This raised the front of the car significantly from where it used to be with the worn out stock springs. Cutting these would have made for a pretty stiff ride. I also want to retain full suspension travel which you can't do with cut springs. Wheel size is 15x7 with 3.5" backspace. 225/65R15 for the tires. No fender rubs or problems with tires this small.

I think that part of the problem may be the wrong taper in the holes. The ball joint stud is significantly lower in the spindle than it was with the Maverick disc brake spindles. This was pointed out to me on the Maverick.to forums. Note the position of the cotter pin hole in the ball joint stud. This alone would not have provided enough clearance to work but may have helped with the upper control arm interference.

2.5" drop is more than I really wanted to go but it seems to be working okay. I just need to find a set of upper control arms/ball joints that will allow me to install these spindles without having to cut or modify the control arms/ball joints.
 

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J

jayman

New Member
Dec 12, 2006
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Apr 17, 2008
#5
  • Apr 17, 2008
  • #5
I just got a call back from Mike at Fatman. It turns out that I didn't check the box well enough. They had included a small plastic bag with banjo bolts and a brass fitting in it and on the very bottom of the box was a set of instructions with my receipt.

To address the problems I had, there are several steps required.

Caliper to control arm. Grind off the top part of the caliper bracket until it doesn't contact anymore.

Lower control arms may interfere with the rotor. Modify the outer end of the control arms with a hammer or grinder to give yourself approximately 1/8" or more of clearance.

Brake hoses. Use hoses from an '85 Buick Riviera (NAPA #36959) drill out the brass block of these hoses to 7/16" and use brass washers and a banjo bolt to attach to the caliper.


They confirmed that there had been a jig issue that caused one of the spindle to caliper bolts to be misaligned. Now fixed.

I will post pictures of the completed installation later tonight with better pictures of the spindle.
 
S

SNAKEPILOT

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Jul 8, 2005
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Apr 18, 2008
#6
  • Apr 18, 2008
  • #6
Jayman,
Did you bolt on your Maverick calipers with the original caliper brackets or do the spindles use custom brackets?
 
N

nugget68

Member
Sep 26, 2005
362
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Apr 18, 2008
#7
  • Apr 18, 2008
  • #7
Looks as if now, with the shorter spindle, you could drop the upper control arm down even further that the 1" that you go with stock spindle. That would take cae of the bind on the ball joint...
 
J

jayman

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Dec 12, 2006
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Apr 18, 2008
#8
  • Apr 18, 2008
  • #8
SNAKEPILOT said:
Jayman,
Did you bolt on your Maverick calipers with the original caliper brackets or do the spindles use custom brackets?
Click to expand...


You use the stock caliper brackets from a Granada, Maverick, etc. You must grind off part of the caliper bracket to clear the uppers.


Looks as if now, with the shorter spindle, you could drop the upper control arm down even further that the 1" that you go with stock spindle. That would take cae of the bind on the ball joint...
Click to expand...

I don't think this is correct. The idea of a dropped spindle is that the car gets a lowered ride height without changing the suspension mount points or geometry. The "Shelby drop" is designed to lower the UCA mount points to improve the camber gain as the wheel travels through it's arc of motion. One of the limiting factors of the Shelby drop is ball joint bind. If you drop the UCA mount points much more than 1" you risk creating a situation where the ball joint reaches the end of it's travel before the suspension reaches the end of it's travel. This can cause the ball joint stud to bend or break or to separate from the cup holding the ball end. All of these are "Bad Things".

I am looking at tubular uppers that may not have the interference problems.
 
N

nugget68

Member
Sep 26, 2005
362
3
19
Apr 18, 2008
#9
  • Apr 18, 2008
  • #9
jayman said:
You use the stock caliper brackets from a Granada, Maverick, etc. You must grind off part of the caliper bracket to clear the uppers.




I don't think this is correct. The idea of a dropped spindle is that the car gets a lowered ride height without changing the suspension mount points or geometry. The "Shelby drop" is designed to lower the UCA mount points to improve the camber gain as the wheel travels through it's arc of motion. One of the limiting factors of the Shelby drop is ball joint bind. If you drop the UCA mount points much more than 1" you risk creating a situation where the ball joint reaches the end of it's travel before the suspension reaches the end of it's travel. This can cause the ball joint stud to bend or break or to separate from the cup holding the ball end. All of these are "Bad Things".

I am looking at tubular uppers that may not have the interference problems.
Click to expand...

Thats what I thought, but from the looks of the pic you posted, it lloks like the upper ball joint is in a bind...unless there is no weigh on the vehicle when that pic was taken, and as I go back and look at it now it seems as though there isnt...
 
B

bnickel

Founding Member
Aug 21, 2002
5,640
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lubbock, texas
Apr 18, 2008
#10
  • Apr 18, 2008
  • #10
it would seem that if you can use stock granada calipers and mounting brackets that with a little modification you could use stock 68-73 calipers and brackets, the only difference is the size of the bolt holes for one of the bracket mounting bolts, but i can't remember off hand which is bigger, i think the granada one is the bigger one which would mean you would either have to sleeve or weld up this hole but it would alleviate the brake hose problem since the 68-73 calipers already have banjo bolts.


just something to think about for anyone else considering this option.
 
S

SNAKEPILOT

New Member
Jul 8, 2005
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Apr 18, 2008
#11
  • Apr 18, 2008
  • #11
bnickel, I think you posted once that you would not consider using Fatman spindles. What were your objections to them?
I originally thought they were cut and welded original spindles but the fabricated spindles actually look pretty good. Unfortunately Fatman told me nothing but Granada brakes would work.
But now Jayman tells me they use the standard Granada caliper bracket, so shouldn't a brake kit that is designed for 70-73 Mustang/Granada spindles work too? My 13" Wilwoods are mounted on a pair of CSRP Granada spindles. The Wilwood kit uses a caliper bracket that replace the Granada bracket. Fatman said my brake kit wouldn't work but maybe he thought I had a drum brake kit. Pretty sure I told them I had Granada spindles, which are all disc.
 
B

bnickel

Founding Member
Aug 21, 2002
5,640
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lubbock, texas
Apr 18, 2008
#12
  • Apr 18, 2008
  • #12
i still wouldn't use them and for all the problems listed here already, plus i don't trust welded spindles on a street car, maybe a track car that gets regular inspections but not on a street car that maybe only gets the suspension checked every oil change, if that. if those welds start to rust then you can pretty much write the spindles off, that and "only" stock granada brakes work, or their kit specifically for the their spindles.
 
J

jayman

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Dec 12, 2006
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Apr 19, 2008
#13
  • Apr 19, 2008
  • #13
I was just really tired of looking at the stars while driving my car. What amazes me is that after all these years, nobody is making a dropped spindle based on the 70 Mustang drum brake spindle. I thought that this was what CSRP was going to produce. Boy, did I get my hopes up. But, alas, it is not to be.

So rather than wait any longer I bought these. With a little massaging, some new brake lines, etc. the car now sits the way I want it to and drives much better than before. I have full suspension travel and basically stock geometry so no need for bump steer corrector kits, etc. It fits within my current 15" wheels. Down side is listed above.

I still want a set of Dennis' spindles when they are available. Maybe I can get a machine shop to modify them to work with the existing brake kit that I want to run.

Or maybe he will have a bracket to allow us to use readily available rotors, calipers, etc. We shall see.
 
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