Finished prototype Mustang disc brake spindles

degins · Jun 7, 2005

68rustang said:
Guys, he is not reinventing the spindle. He is taking a proven design and reproducing it using better techniques. The testing he describes looks for flaws in construction that would affect strength.

Thank you 68rustang, I couldn't have said it better. The design is proven through 30 years of use on Granadas. I intend to assure that the parts conform to design and construction specifications. That is, to insure the:

material of construction (1045 carbon steel)
harness
dimensional integrety (is it configured correctly)
lack of casting defects (by XRay and acostical analysis)

I doubt this much care was given in 1977 by the sweatshop plant operators that made the original spindles.

I personally have a lot more confidence in this product as opposed to slapping a bracket on a 40 year old Mustang spindle that was not originally engineered for such application (especially 13" rotor used by some kits).

In any case, I'm not making these parts for racing application, and neither dd Ford. I am thinking of the Classic ford owner who wants an economical OEM style front disc brake swap for their Falcon chassis based car.

69 Capecod · Jun 7, 2005

Ohhh my god. Can you go back and read all the post before you comment. Then come back and ask what Questions you want. If you dont want them you dont have to buy them.

why granda and not say the 70 mustang spindals which by far are the best because they are beefier

69 Capecod · Jun 7, 2005

Sorry just saw that this was a dirfrent post someone asked this same question on another post.

krash kendall · Jun 7, 2005

The type of casting process degins is doing has multiple steps in it that would take half a page to describe. It is a reliable way of maintaining consistancy and uniformity of finished components. The testing described is an insurance policy on those procedures. Cost of design and tooling inhibits most venders from going this route and you wind up with questionable product done on the cheap such as what Marshall speaks of. Degins product appears to be a quality re-cast of an original part without any dramatic modifications that one would question.

I've seen wheel ideas scrawled on a napkin become custom one-offs in a day in real life (I'm in the CNC industry). Are they safe? Maybe. Do they have enough web in the flange to support the car in heavy cornering? Maybe. People line up for these to say that they have a set of one-offs from (insert name here) regardless. Yet these people are ACTUALLY trying to reinvent the wheel whereas degins is essentially reproducing an existing product.

degins · Jun 7, 2005

68_Shelby_Coupe said:
i still wouldent trust them unless they were road tested. each and every part made now days and in the past was and is tested before being sold. i would trust a 40+ year old spindal over the new one because they have had 40+ years of testing and nothing has happened to them. also if your going to repoduce spindals why granda and not say the 70 mustang spindals which by far are the best because they are beefier

Let's get the facts straight. The 70 and Granada steering knuckle (the piece that is sometimes call a spindle) are identical except that the 70 uses 9/16" and 7/16" bolts to mount the caliper bracet and the Granada uses a 1/2" and 7/16", and the tie rod mounting holes are smaller on the 70. Otherwise identical means IDENTICAL. The main difference in the 70 and Granada system is the caliper and caliper brackets that mount to them. I will soon offer a 70 type caliper bracket.

HistoricMustang · Jun 7, 2005

68rustang said:
What is road testing going to tell you?

Oh boy.

HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

krash kendall · Jun 7, 2005

HistoricMustang said:
Oh boy.

Easy now....kinder and gentler....kinder and gentler...

68_Shelby_Coupe · Jun 7, 2005

HistoricMustang said:
Oh boy.

HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

exactly my point.

road testing tells you alot about the casting that bench testing cant

Opentracker · Jun 7, 2005

Real world testing is the only way to show potential customers for sure, if something is going to work. Even if your part is identical to another and it looks good on paper, folks like to see the part on a car doing it's thing. I just got a load of crap from a guy about my roller perches on another site. He said "While ball bearings may look sexy and high tech., I think that converting from bushings (rubber, poly, or any type) to ball bearings is a mistake." He didn't ask or know about the testing I have done. Well, after almost two years of testing both on and off the track, none have failed. I didn't know ball bearings were sexy, so I did learn something.

Very nice work on the steering knuckles by the way. I'm sure they are stronger than a stock unit.

John

68rustang · Jun 7, 2005

68_Shelby_Coupe said:
...road testing tells you alot about the casting that bench testing can't.

What?

68rustang · Jun 7, 2005

Opentracker said:
Real world testing is the only way to show potential customers for sure, if something is going to work. Even if your part is identical to another and it looks good on paper, folks like to see the part on a car doing it's thing. I just got a load of crap from a guy about my roller perches on another site. He said "While ball bearings may look sexy and high tech., I think that converting from bushings (rubber, poly, or any type) to ball bearings is a mistake." He didn't ask or know about the testing I have done. Well, after almost two years of testing both on and off the track, none have failed. I didn't know ball bearings were sexy, so I did learn something.

Very nice work on the steering knuckles by the way. I'm sure they are stronger than a stock unit.

John

I have always found ball bearings sexy...

Anyway, I know that seeing a part "do it's thing" gives people the warm fuzzy feeling that it will do it's job correctly. There are however other ways to ensure a parts meet the design criteria.

meanroy · Jun 7, 2005

Cast vs forged

It is my understanding that stock ford spindles are forged, which would make it problematic as to whether the cast spindles designed by degins are as strong or stronger than stock ford parts.

As to testing, metallurgical, Xray, and dimensional analysis can not substitute for actual stress testing.
While road testing will lend some degree of comfort in a design, testing to limit is the only way to certify the actual performance of a part.
Once limit testing has been done, metallurgical, Xray, and dimensional analysis may be used to verify each part conforms to the design.

Roy.

degins · Jun 7, 2005

meanroy said:
It is my understanding that stock ford spindles are forged, which would make it problematic as to whether the cast spindles designed by degins are as strong or stronger than stock ford parts.

As to testing, metallurgical, Xray, and dimensional analysis can not substitute for actual stress testing.
While road testing will lend some degree of comfort in a design, testing to limit is the only way to certify the actual performance of a part.
Once limit testing has been done, metallurgical, Xray, and dimensional analysis may be used to verify each part conforms to the design.

Roy.

With all due respect, understanding is a poor substitute for knowledge. Spindles for Falcon based chassis (falcon, mustang, maverick, granada) were sand cast in Ford's foundry.

Use testing is ill defined, seat of the pants, gonzo (highly subjective). Serious business in the engineering area uses objective measurements for quality and success. In the modern world, the fabrication of metal parts is science, not art. But, as I've said before, these parts and the Ford originals are not intended for race use. I will assure that the physical properties of the parts are superior to the originals.

TT670 · Jun 8, 2005

You guys make it sound as if he's making these things in his basement or something.

Hack · Jun 8, 2005

I fall on the "scientific analysis" side in this case. The "use" or road testing has been fairly thorough in the last 20 years or so.

I also trust Ford's parts to be safely over designed for their intended uses.

68rustang · Jun 8, 2005

It's nice to see some of you guys out there understand engineering and strength of materials.

Where will you be selling these through?

Edbert · Jun 8, 2005

Historic's question about the testing these have undergone is completely valid. So was the answer he recieved in my book. As long as the geometry of the spindles have not changed then there should not need to be road-testing. When he gets into the drop spindles and SN95 adapters then perhaps my opinion will change. I also agree the testing and overall quality of this part will be ahead of other commercially available parts including OEM ones.

Jester67 · Jun 8, 2005

Two comments. One question.
1. In theory, theory and practice are one in the same. In practice however they are not.
2. I do destructive testing on ALL of my designs. This is the only way to determine true raw margin of any design / process. In this case I would conduct these test using destructive testing on representative samples of both new and original parts.
3. When you say the geometry is the same how many samples did you measure to determine the variance in the original design to assure you where not copying a defective / out of tolerance part.
This is not intended as criticism I think what you are doing is great.

1320stang · Jun 8, 2005

Jimminy Crickets you guys, he just got the first prototype cast and machined. Do you honestly think he's going straight to selling them without putting them on a car? What criteria do you need for road testing? A 30 minute drive thru town and on an interstate at normal highway speeds? Destructive testing, putting it into a hydraulic press with a gage on it to see how much strain is needed before it deforms or breaks? Or is that destructive road testing where he drives a car so hard until it breaks. Geez, give the man some time and opportunity to get to the point it's market ready first, then ask him what he's done and been thru. I for one, know how "rewarding" it is to have someone criticize what your doing before your even done. Now some on here are asking valid questions, but he did say this wasn't a racing piece, to use it as such you'd be doing so at your own risk. That said, I believe this piece will perform up to par or exceed the design(s) it's based off of, I mean we are talking about at least 20 years of metalurgy, process equipment, and testing advances.

meanroy · Jun 8, 2005

degins said:
With all due respect, understanding is a poor substitute for knowledge. Spindles for Falcon based chassis (falcon, mustang, maverick, granada) were sand cast in Ford's foundry.

Thanks for correcting my mis-apprehension. What alloy did they use BTW? Just curious.

degins said:
Use testing is ill defined, seat of the pants, gonzo (highly subjective). Serious business in the engineering area uses objective measurements for quality and success. In the modern world, the fabrication of metal parts is science, not art. But, as I've said before, these parts and the Ford originals are not intended for race use. I will assure that the physical properties of the parts are superior to the originals.

I believe you misinterpreted my comments.

I was not suggesting "use testing", though as some others have stated, it provides some level of confidence.

I was reacting to the following statement:

degins said:
The prototypes will get a full metallurgical, Xray, and dimensional analysis . Production pieces will get lot metallugical, Xray, and dimensional analysis. All pieces will get acoustical and dimensional analysis...

To me this implied that road testing and laboratory stress testing were not required because the part was built to design. Mechanical testing seems like a good idea to verify the design. I doubt any manufacturer of a critical part such as this would take it to market without having test lab data to support the design.
Cyclic stress testing is well defined and can be performed by a variety of testing labs.

This looks like a fine design, I'm sure it will perform well, but it seems to me it would be a really good idea to do some physical testing.

1320stang said:
Jimminy Crickets you guys, he just got the first prototype cast and machined. ...

he did say this wasn't a racing piece, to use it as such you'd be doing so at your own risk. ...

Larry, I agree with you but lets be realistic, I'm sure a lot of guys would love to take this part racing and I'd be willing to bet they will depend on the manufacturers tests and not perform their own.

Roy.

PS. road testing CANNOT substite for lab testing because hopefully the part won't break while road testing it.

Finished prototype Mustang disc brake spindles

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