Front suspension rebuild

ColdBloodedVert · Jan 4, 2004

I have a 65 Fastback that I am looking to upgrade the front upper and lower control arms. I already have springs, shocks, and sway bar upgrades. I am looking for something better than stock to be worthy of road course duty.

I have seen the high priced stuff from Global West and Total Control Products. Is there anything in between this stuff and stock type components? I can't seem to find anything.

If there is nothing else out there, which is better Global West or Total Control?

67GTA-FB429 · Jan 4, 2004

I am in the middle of a suspension and steering upgrade. New control arms, springs, shocks, sway bars, tie-rods. I got my stuff from MustangsPlus.com. Winter weather has slowed the delivery of some of the parts but everything seems to be good quality and just haveing new parts under there insead of worn-out 35yo parts will make a world of difference. A whole kit cost <$1000, and you can add or subtract parts from it to suit your needs. If you go that direction tell them you want to use code 68 (an extra $50 off).

69stanger · Jan 4, 2004

have you thought about a negative wedge kit?

usedtobe 67p51d · Jan 4, 2004

If your choosing between the two-go global west. Read their website it tells all about why to use their items. Jim

BobV · Jan 4, 2004

A-arm Tech Info

DarkBuddha · Jan 4, 2004

If you think the cost of GW and TCP's arms are pricey, then you should seriously reconsider your road course plans. Road racing is expensive in general, but regular replacement of parts is just part of the normal course. And when you look at the quality and strength of GW and TCP pieces, it becomes obvious that they are definitely worth the money and are probably a bit of bargain really, especially if it cuts down on the amount of arm replacement.

Anyway, to answer the original question, there really isn't much in terms of readily available alternatives inbetween stock and tubular. Now if you're up to doing some welding, you can spend the time to reinforce stock control arms by boxing the lower and I think there is a reinforcement kit available for the uppers. Combined with the Shelby drop, good sway bars and springs, and a good rebuild using urethane bushings, should get you a decently strong and capable suspension.

One last thing, if you don't already, I highly suggest visiting a forum like www.corner-carvers.com to get a real sense of the performance of parts, suspension design, etc. Those guys know their crap and many of them drive or are building early Mustangs for regular road course duty.

Hope this helps...

ColdBloodedVert · Jan 5, 2004

Thanks for the suggestions. When you put things into perspective, I guess the tubular products really are a good deal. I only go to a few events per year so these should last me quite a long time and be the safest. I just didn't want to blindly buy these components without knowing what else is out there. I am going to give Global West a call.

mdjay · Jan 6, 2004

ColdBloodedVert said:
Thanks for the suggestions. When you put things into perspective, I guess the tubular products really are a good deal. I only go to a few events per year so these should last me quite a long time and be the safest. I just didn't want to blindly buy these components without knowing what else is out there. I am going to give Global West a call.

Careful, do research before this purchase...

GW still uses shims! TCP is adjustable and no shims...

BobV · Jan 6, 2004

mdjay said:
Careful, do research before this purchase...

GW still uses shims! TCP is adjustable and no shims...

And shims are a GOOD thing, IMO. Set it once and forget it. They don't loosen or come out of adjustment. Yes, it's a little more difficult to setup, but it's worth it.

If you don't use shims, you change the length of the arms, which changes the camber and toe curves. It's entirely possible to have different length arms on each side of the car.

mdjay · Jan 6, 2004

BobV said:
And shims are a GOOD thing, IMO. Set it once and forget it. They don't loosen or come out of adjustment. Yes, it's a little more difficult to setup, but it's worth it.

If you don't use shims, you change the length of the arms, which changes the camber and toe curves. It's entirely possible to have different length arms on each side of the car.

Yeah, Yeah! I have had this debate many times as well.

The adjustable lowers and strut rods can accomodate any of these changes. The car becomes way more adjustable for whatever your needs. Shimming changes the geometry as well! I've also had shims pop out, so the arguement is not fail safe.

Let's go side by side on the track and find out who's taken the corners better

BobV · Jan 6, 2004

Oops - I forgot - you SELL TCP...

Shimming only squares the chassis to obtain static settings. Shimming does not change the dynamic curves. The distance from pivot to balljoint stays the same. When you start changing the arm length, however, the arc DOES change. I've never lost shims, but I'm sure there are plenty of alignment techs who don't even know what they are....

As far as lower arm length and strut rods... The lower arm should start square with the chassis. If you need adjustable length struts to get there, then the chassis is not square. Once you start adjusting camber and caster at BOTH the upper & lower arms as well as caster thru a variable length radius arm, you're just begging to have problems, as each side of the suspension is different from the other.

Good Suspension Article - even if presented by Global West.
Here is a list of what you are changing when you change the length of a control arm, let alone both for the sake of alignment.

1. Rotating the upper arm adjusters will cause the arm to get longer or shorter. Which way it will be adjusted depends on your alignment settings. However, the car sees something else besides alignment. Example: Let’s say that the driver’s side needs to be adjusted out and back so the arm length is now 10 inches. Let’s say the passenger side is set to 10 3/8 inches. The car sees a swing arm 3/8 of an inch longer on one side than the other. This has directly affected the camber gain, the caster camber relationship with respects to turn in, and bump steer. (By the way, we have been doing alignment work for over 18 years.) Mustangs never take the same amount of shims or have the eccentric‘s turned equally on both sides. However they do have equal length control arms.

2. Let’s say the lower control arms are adjustable in length. Example: One side of my1966 Mustang needs more negative camber. Let’s align the car for road racing at 2 degree’s negative. I need to adjust the driver side out ¼ of an inch to make it work. I need to adjust the passenger side in 3/8 of an inch. My Mustang now has a 10 inch arm on one side and a 9 1/2 inch arm on the other. What did I change?

FIRST: You did change the camber. You now have 2 degrees negative.

SECOND: You just changed the camber curve and made each side of the car react differently. The camber curve is directly affected by the lenght of the upper to lower arm relationship. This can show up as uneven tire wear. Chassis setup will be unusual.

THIRD: You just changed your toe curve affecting bumpsteer. Why? Because bump steer is based on the fixed lengths of the control arms. You just messed that up. The simplest definition of bump steer is, the matching of steering geometry and suspension geometry, so all arcs follow a similar path. This is achieved by using known values. Fixed length control arms and steering pickup points etc.

FOURTH: Correcting bumpsteer will be difficult because this has to do with the lenghts of the steering links, control arms, control arm pivot points, height of the inner to outer tie rods, position of the steering knuckle pivot, etc. Which alignment shop are you taking this too?

FIFTH: Caster has now increased. Like most, you are running max on your tire wheel package. Check for interference with the front part of the fender. Also, it is possible to have too much caster on a Mustang and create other problems.

SIXTH: Vehicles are much easier to diagnose and drive when both sides of the car are doing the same thing.( geometrically)

Now, with all that said - I'm not going to change your mind, and you're not going to change mine. We've each gone the way we did for our own reasons. Yours works - mine works.

mdjay · Jan 7, 2004

The beer looks like a good plan!

I don't just sell TCP, I drive it, race it, and I'm all smiles

I have nothing against GW other than you are limited to the stock tolerances. Where the TCP products offer way more adjustability and handling capabilities.

Stop by our booth at the 40th in TN, and I'll take you up on the beer!

BobV · Jan 7, 2004

mdjay said:
The beer looks like a good plan!
Stop by our booth at the 40th in TN, and I'll take you up on the beer!

Sounds good!

bud4660 · Jan 7, 2004

This is the thing I am wondering about?? "Beware of some of the imported arms as they can be quite thin." I dont plan on going road racing but I am planing on drag racing. The last thing I want is to have a control arm or tie rod break. How do you know what your getting from the Mustang part places??

mdjay · Jan 7, 2004

suspension

bud4660 said:
This is the thing I am wondering about?? "Beware of some of the imported arms as they can be quite thin." I dont plan on going road racing but I am planing on drag racing. The last thing I want is to have a control arm or tie rod break. How do you know what your getting from the Mustang part places??

The major majority of stock replacement products on the market are imported. This include GAT, PST and pretty much all the rest.

The American made versions, as limited in availability as they are, can be almost as expensive as the tubulars we were discussing.

There are some stock style ones on the market that have reinforcements. They are the middle road here! You can just as easily reinforce your own!

usedtobe 67p51d · Jan 7, 2004

I broke tcp a-arms! I now own global west a-arms. I will spend time with my alignment shop to find out how many shims to remove to increase camber when I'm out at willowsprings. Anyone want a rebuilt set of '67/73 tcp uppers .......cheap juz pm me

mdjay · Jan 7, 2004

broke?

usedtobe 67p51d said:
I broke tcp a-arms! I now own global west a-arms. I will spend time with my alignment shop to find out how many shims to remove to increase camber when I'm out at willowsprings. Anyone want a rebuilt set of '67/73 tcp uppers .......cheap juz pm me

We've been selling TCP for about 5 years now, and this is a first! I'm sure they would replace the unit if you contacted them!

Where did it actually break on the arm?

bud4660 · Jan 7, 2004

mdjay said:
The major majority of stock replacement products on the market are imported. This include GAT, PST and pretty much all the rest.

The American made versions, as limited in availability as they are, can be almost as expensive as the tubulars we were discussing.

There are some stock style ones on the market that have reinforcements. They are the middle road here! You can just as easily reinforce your own!

So they are all junk then?? I had found some new nos ones listed on one of the sites. But your right the price was almost as high as the tubular ones. Also found the stock type already boxed. And they were high too. Since this is a big block car that is going to pull the wheels on the line I was worried about breakage when it comes back down. I really didnt want to do tube stuff again. I just sold a car that had the coilovers and tube front end. So do you think the reinforced ones or the nos would be better to use??
Thanks!!

mdjay · Jan 7, 2004

arms

bud4660 said:
So they are all junk then?? I had found some new nos ones listed on one of the sites. But your right the price was almost as high as the tubular ones. Also found the stock type already boxed. And they were high too. Since this is a big block car that is going to pull the wheels on the line I was worried about breakage when it comes back down. I really didnt want to do tube stuff again. I just sold a car that had the coilovers and tube front end. So do you think the reinforced ones or the nos would be better to use??
Thanks!!

Depending on the ball joints they are using, the re-inforced ones would be better than nos if they are using the Moog or TRW joints. The nos ones are obviously better than imported. I have sources for the reinforced products so if you are interested, send me a PM.

Back to the shim issue! I was on the track about ten years back, pulled in for a quick sway bar and carb adjustment, pulled back out and had forgotten to pin the hood. I slammed on the brake and had turned the wheel about a half turn 'cause it got out of shape. I got out and pinned the hood down, jumped back in the car and started going. The car was pulling really hard to the left. I took one lap and brought it right back in. I started looking around and found that I had lost all the shims on the front right bolt. I had pulled out some shims for the race and had this snugged down as tight as I could get 'em.

The shock tower was not torn, maybe it the upper flexed. I doubt they were oem. All I know is it happened, as freak as it may seem. Word to the wise here is, if you're gonna drive it real hard, reinforce the shock towers too. The flexing and metal fatigue can cause failure with any arm!

bud4660 · Jan 7, 2004

Thanks Jay. I will let you know!! Also checked out the site.

Front suspension rebuild

ColdBloodedVert

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