I have a 69 stang with a supposed 302 that will only run with the cam 180 out. It doesn't run right but will start after a pop back through the carb. It runs like its not hitting on all cylinders. I know the firing order and all components are new. Could it have a cam from some other engine? I have never seen anything like it. Can you help get to the bottom of this mystery?
Help With My 69
- Thread starter acuster
- Start date
95Vert383AOD
15 Year Member
What firing order are you using? If the motor is a newer roller 302 the firing order is 137xxxxx.
still need help with 69
Yes I have been all through that. The firing order on the 5.0 HO is the same as the 351. Believe me I have been through this thing from every angle I could think of short of pulling the cam out. This is just what I am getting ready to do within the next couple of days when I can get the time. I have a new cam on the way. And nothing else explains how this car runs 180 out of time and won't run in factory specified time. If there are any other options I am open to hearing them.
Yes I have been all through that. The firing order on the 5.0 HO is the same as the 351. Believe me I have been through this thing from every angle I could think of short of pulling the cam out. This is just what I am getting ready to do within the next couple of days when I can get the time. I have a new cam on the way. And nothing else explains how this car runs 180 out of time and won't run in factory specified time. If there are any other options I am open to hearing them.
brianj5600
Active Member
Did you try the early firing order? In your other thread you also said the cam is 180* out. Where were the timing marks? Cam gear dot down and crank gear dot up? I really doubt an engine will run with the cam 180* out. Try advancing the timing. Mine ran like that when the timing was way retarded. Also there are 3 different timing tabs and they must be used with the matching balancer.
Not found It Yet
I wouldn't have believed it either and I didn't know that it was until I pulled the timing cover off. I was trying to understand why the car would only run with the timing advanced 20 degrees. And then it acted labored and would only run at fast idle. I thought maybe the cam timing was off a tooth. Then I discovered the cam mark is pointed up as is the crank mark. The distributor was set at factory spec. I put it as it should be with cam mark down and crank mark up. All it would do at that point is what you would expect from a car timed 180 out Pop Pop Pop. I put it back to what should be 180 out and I was back where I started. One days messing with this thing and nothing accomplished.
I wouldn't have believed it either and I didn't know that it was until I pulled the timing cover off. I was trying to understand why the car would only run with the timing advanced 20 degrees. And then it acted labored and would only run at fast idle. I thought maybe the cam timing was off a tooth. Then I discovered the cam mark is pointed up as is the crank mark. The distributor was set at factory spec. I put it as it should be with cam mark down and crank mark up. All it would do at that point is what you would expect from a car timed 180 out Pop Pop Pop. I put it back to what should be 180 out and I was back where I started. One days messing with this thing and nothing accomplished.
brianj5600
Active Member
If you aim the cam gear dot straight up it is timed exactly the same as if it was straight down. The cam turns 1/2 a turn for each full crank rotation. Turn the crankshaft 360* and the cam dot will be on bottom and the crank dot on top, just like it should be.
Do you know for sure the timing pointer is correct for your balancer? If you have a 10 o'clock damper with an 11 o'clock pointer it will read 30* off. 20*btdc with a timing light would actually be 10*atdc.
Do you know for sure the timing pointer is correct for your balancer? If you have a 10 o'clock damper with an 11 o'clock pointer it will read 30* off. 20*btdc with a timing light would actually be 10*atdc.
Come on guys you know better than that. Cam timing mark up is 180 degrees out from timing mark down. They are not the same. I apaerantly know more about the way an engine works than you if you are telling me they are the same thing. As to firing order and distributor rotation I have a repair manual and know all this. To my knowlage there are only two firing orders used on ford V8s except for a truck engine. I have tried them all including the truck engine order. This is not a simple firing order or timing issue. I wish it were that simple I would have been done with this a long time ago.
brianj5600
Active Member
You must know more because your car does not run and mine does. It actually runs real good. I am beginning to think you are posting goofy stuff for entertainment.
Don't I wish
Truly this is in deed the strangest thing I have ever seen with a car. I was a mechanic for fifteen years on European cars but grew up driving ford and mopars so I understand cars. This one has me stumped and I won't know what is going on with it till I pull the cam out. Clearly it is not the right cam for this engine. Nothing else explains all the symptoms. Believe me I have tried every configuration I could with timing and firing order. This car will only run when it is set 180 from what it should be and that makes no sense.
Truly this is in deed the strangest thing I have ever seen with a car. I was a mechanic for fifteen years on European cars but grew up driving ford and mopars so I understand cars. This one has me stumped and I won't know what is going on with it till I pull the cam out. Clearly it is not the right cam for this engine. Nothing else explains all the symptoms. Believe me I have tried every configuration I could with timing and firing order. This car will only run when it is set 180 from what it should be and that makes no sense.
brianj5600
Active Member
You do understand that the crank turns 2 time for every one time the cam turns, right? 360* = 1 turn, 180* = 1/2 turn. So if the crank turns 360* the cam turns 180*. If the dot on the crank is up and the dot on the cam is up and you turn the crank 1 full turn the dot will be up on the crank and the dot on the cam will be down. Try it before you pull the cam. If you disagree with this you may need someone else to work on your car. Don't worry about the numbers on the damper. Try advancing the timing and see if it runs better.
Thank you I know all this. What I am saying is with the distributor in and set at number one the cam is 180 out, meaning the mark is pointing up. This is how it runs. As I have said I didn't even know this till I pulled the timing cover off.. With it running I have tried advancing and retarding the timing and there is a rang where it runs its best but not well, cutting out at either end of its sweep. Thank you for your input but if this was a simple timing or firing order problem I wouldn't be looking for answers.. I would be driving this sweet car that I just spent a lot of time and money restoring. I bought it in boxes and my biggest mistake was believing the guy when he said the engine was professionally rebuilt.
Apparently not cause you're here asking for advice.
Your distributor is 180* off. Put your #1 piston at TDC on the firing stroke, then look to see where the rotor is pointing.Apparently you either don't understand what I'm telling you or you don't believe what I'm saying. This car only runs with It's timing 180 out from what the factory says it must be. Fact. This is why I am asking if anyone knows if a cam from a 351 or other will fit in a 302. I have tested and checked and rechecked everything in the system before I sent the first query.
brianj5600
Active Member
I guess I don't know what you are saying. If the distributor is 180 out it will fire on the exhaust stroke. Little chance of an engine running like that. A cam can not be 180 out.
A 351w cam will interchange with a 302 as long as you use the correct firing order. I have a 351w with a 289/302 cam in it. #1 on the cap can be anywhere. I put mine where plug wire routing made the most sense. If it is at TDC on the compression stroke, the rotor can point anywhere as long as you put #1 wire where the rotor is. My msd takes care of all the timing so I removed the vacuum advance and it faces toward the intake simply so there was not a big whole facing out where the canister was. Plus the alternator is in the way. I don't understand what is 180* out. #1 is at about 7:30 in this pic and the wires come out of the housing at about 12:30.
A 351w cam will interchange with a 302 as long as you use the correct firing order. I have a 351w with a 289/302 cam in it. #1 on the cap can be anywhere. I put mine where plug wire routing made the most sense. If it is at TDC on the compression stroke, the rotor can point anywhere as long as you put #1 wire where the rotor is. My msd takes care of all the timing so I removed the vacuum advance and it faces toward the intake simply so there was not a big whole facing out where the canister was. Plus the alternator is in the way. I don't understand what is 180* out. #1 is at about 7:30 in this pic and the wires come out of the housing at about 12:30.
If your distributor is working 180* off the factory specs, then it's 180* off from where it's supposed to have the rotor pointing at TDC. In anycase, good luck with it. I'm done trying to 'splain it to you.
Hack
15 Year Member
Just coming to this thread and reading through it, it seems to me that you are contradicting yourself. They are right about the cam position; it is correct from your description. It is NOT 180 degrees out.
Please just take the other peoples' advice and check distributor timing. Pull the plug from the #1 cylinder and rotate until you are on the compression stroke (you will feel a puff of air if you cover the spark plug hole with your finger). Rotate to top dead center using the timing marks. Now make sure that the rotor on the distributor points at the spot on the cap for the #1 cylinder. That should get you in the ballpark.
Good luck.
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