how the hell?!

skywalker · May 13, 2005

Someone explain to me how the F$%& you close half of a base in an urban area? Hell, how do you move the only fighter squadron in range to protect a major city?

Yes, that means my half of our base is on the list. NAS Atlanta...it's half of a base, the other half is Dobbins ARB which isn't on the list. I'm wondering if some dip$#|+ at the pentagon even realizes that they are the SAME DAMNED BASE?!?!

t_chelle16 · May 13, 2005

At least I know Whiteman is safe. No other base has enough hangers to house all the B2's.

-Chelle

StangDreamin' · May 13, 2005

That's okay, skywalker; MCAS-Yuma is gaining - you know you'd love to PCS here!

Interestingly enough, Yuma Proving Grounds (USATECOM) isn't even mentioned on the BRAC. Sometime in the past; our local Mayor managed to befriend Duncan Hunter. Obviously, Hunter is not saying anything; however he "all but said" to Larry that YPG is not on the list because there are unspecified "other priorities" for the base.

2nd Mustang · May 14, 2005

I heard they were even thinking of combining the different services into the same base. That should paint an interesting picture. I could barely keep track of the officer ranks in one service much less all the others, although when in Vietnam and Thailand, no officers wanted to be saluted.

StangDreamin' · May 14, 2005

2nd Mustang said:
I heard they were even thinking of combining the different services into the same base. That should paint an interesting picture. I could barely keep track of the officer ranks in one service much less all the others, although when in Vietnam and Thailand, no officers wanted to be saluted.

Combining various services (Army, Marines, Air Force) on one base is just the latest idea in the "Joint Forces" brainstorm (I'll keep my thoughts to myself!) Instead of a squadron being placed TDY on some other service's base; they move there permanently. Yeah, like I can see a Warthog squadron living next-door to a flock of F15's and across the apron from a squadron of Harriers and a bunch of Hornets - that's gonna demonstrate some inter-service cooperation!

As far as rank insignia; it seems only the boys in white have a really out-of-place structure. The officers' insignia is really weird - a Rear Admiral, Lower Half is like a Brig General.... R.A, Upper-Half is a two star, but they both have four stripes on their sleeves??? Of course, a Navy Captain is a Colonel in any other service... Even the white-hats' insignia is AFU, as far as I'm concerned.... Mrs StDr's brother was a CPO2 when he got out ("made" Master Chief in the Reserves); but his sleeves looked like somebody went Monkey-Football with 2 hands-full of PFC chevrons

Sheese!

skywalker · May 14, 2005

In the marineswe don't salute officer's int he field anyways.

We need more interservice cooperation. One of the issues that causes fratricide is that when marines see a couple ofair force birds about to strafe their position, they can't radiothem and tell them hey we're friendlies: the comms are completely different. Same things happens when we see a bunch of guys and they MIGHT be army...or they MIGHT be republican guard.we can't radio them and find out 'cause...different comms.

That being said, NAS Atlanta is a joint base. It features Army, Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps. Half of the base is designated the air force side or Dobbins ARB and the other half is the Navy side, NAS Atlanta. But the base is one seamless base, there is no fence seperating the 2 and it isn't very big. Heck, we share run ways! So how do you close HALF of the base and expect to save money?

Only way I can see it, is they close down all navy support and place the base entirely under air force command and leave units in place. If they simply move all of the DON units to anotherbase, you save ZERO because we require our own structures, so all of the continous costs will still continue, just at another base.

t_chelle16 · May 14, 2005

2nd Mustang said:
I heard they were even thinking of combining the different services into the same base. That should paint an interesting picture. I could barely keep track of the officer ranks in one service much less all the others, although when in Vietnam and Thailand, no officers wanted to be saluted.

We've had a Navy dive team at Whiteman for a few years now.

-Chelle

bnickel · May 14, 2005

in the last round of base closings they closed down Reese AFB here, now they are closing Cannon in Clovis which is the next closest base to us, there's still Dyess in Abilene but that won't help the economy in Lubbock at all, those guys either go to Midland/Odessa or Dallas if they want to get out of Abilene. what worries me is that PanTex in Amarillo is now basically going to be unguarded from anywhere close by. personally i think the pentagon has their heads up their collective asses.

StangDreamin' · May 14, 2005

bnickel said:
in the last round of base closings they closed down Reese AFB here, now they are closing Cannon in Clovis which is the next closest base to us, there's still Dyess in Abilene but that won't help the economy in Lubbock at all, ....

Was reading in this morning's paper that the "Northern B2's" are going to join the rest of that fleet at Dyess; and with that, Ellsworth (S.D.) would be closing down. So, maybe there will be a few more guys to see the sights of Lubbock.

Hadn't heard about Cannon; my nephew kept getting sent there TDY, so I'm surprised that my sister hasn't said anything about him not even getting as close as NM anymore. I aslo heard nothing about White Sands? Every time the subject of BRAC comes up, the rumors fly around town that it's coming down to closing either White Sands or Yuma Proving Grounds. Since White Sands has become TECOM Hq (and YPG is now declared a lowly "subordinate command"); the intimation was that YPG would be axed. I guess that the mess in the Gulf has changed that now

As far as "mixing units" goes; I can see where it has some merit - although I'm a little skeptical....I had also read about plans to pull the 7th SFG out of Bragg and permanently send them to Eglin AFB so they can train with the Air Force SOC. In my previous posting's scenario; I was looking at the same dichotomy of commitments. An A-10 pilot (like the old Cobra pilots) has a lot more in common with the 'legs on the ground than he does with the typical Eagle pilot waaaaaaay up there in low earth orbit. F18's are all about dogfighting well above the theater; while the typical AV-8 pilot is hoping to commit some serious air-to-ground mass destruction - then put that washing machine on the deck without punching his tip gear through the wings. (Don't tell me that doesn't happen - three Harrier squadrons live 7 miles (across town) from my house; and we get to hear about it way too regularly!

Four different squadrons, four wildly disparate missions. Throw in an after-mission cocktail hour, and it ain't a-gonna be pretty.

Chelle was talking about a Navy Dive Team at Whiteman. That's interesting.... my sister and her first husband spent their honeymoon (32 years ago) driving from here to Ft Eustice, VA for his next post. He was an ARMY salvage diver. To this day; Army+diver = StDr going

skywalker · May 14, 2005

StangDreamin' said:
Was reading in this morning's paper that the "Northern B2's" are going to join the rest of that fleet at Dyess; and with that, Ellsworth (S.D.) would be closing down. So, maybe there will be a few more guys to see the sights of Lubbock.

Hadn't heard about Cannon; my nephew kept getting sent there TDY, so I'm surprised that my sister hasn't said anything about him not even getting as close as NM anymore. I aslo heard nothing about White Sands? Every time the subject of BRAC comes up, the rumors fly around town that it's coming down to closing either White Sands or Yuma Proving Grounds. Since White Sands has become TECOM Hq (and YPG is now declared a lowly "subordinate command"); the intimation was that YPG would be axed. I guess that the mess in the Gulf has changed that now

As far as "mixing units" goes; I can see where it has some merit - although I'm a little skeptical....I had also read about plans to pull the 7th SFG out of Bragg and permanently send them to Eglin AFB so they can train with the Air Force SOC. In my previous posting's scenario; I was looking at the same dichotomy of commitments. An A-10 pilot (like the old Cobra pilots) has a lot more in common with the 'legs on the ground than he does with the typical Eagle pilot waaaaaaay up there in low earth orbit. F18's are all about dogfighting well above the theater; while the typical AV-8 pilot is hoping to commit some serious air-to-ground mass destruction - then put that washing machine on the deck without punching his tip gear through the wings. (Don't tell me that doesn't happen - three Harrier squadrons live 7 miles (across town) from my house; and we get to hear about it way too regularly!

Four different squadrons, four wildly disparate missions. Throw in an after-mission cocktail hour, and it ain't a-gonna be pretty.

Chelle was talking about a Navy Dive Team at Whiteman. That's interesting.... my sister and her first husband spent their honeymoon (32 years ago) driving from here to Ft Eustice, VA for his next post. He was an ARMY salvage diver. To this day; Army+diver = StDr going

I'll disagree with some assessments:

First off, I'm a Cobra and Huey mech whose squadron shares a hangar (though not here are Camp Pen) with an F/A-18 squadron, so I can speak pretty candidly and with familiarity about them, at least as they work in the Marine Corps. First, there is little old about a Cobra pilot. (well, except maybe in our squadron where the most junior officer is a 33 year old major - hardly a junior officer!) Cobras are here to stay and will soon have their lives extended at least another 25 years along with the hueys when they are more or less rebuilt as four bladed systems. They will fly higher, faster and farther. That being said, I have no desire to be a cobra pilot, rotary just is not what I want to fly. Hornets (at least in the marine corps, the navy may very well have different missions - in fact they do) have lately relegated dog fighting and air to air combat to a more minor role (though it is still a major part of it) in their training. The majority of everything a marine aviator does is close air support. Heck, we (the corps) invented it and have honed it into the mastery that it is! Don't believe me? Go read "Hornets Over Kuwait" by Jay A. Stout. Tell me how many air to air missions he describes. The Hornet squadron we share a hangar with is in Iraq right now, how many missions other than recon or cas do you thing they pull? I can tell you right now: zero.

Air to air is still a primary mission of VMFAs, but as I am constantly told in every thing I do and every where I go in the Marine Corps: it is all about supporting the grunt on the ground in combat.

StangDreamin' · May 14, 2005

skywalker said:
First, there is little old about a Cobra pilot. (well, except maybe in our squadron where the most junior officer is a 33 year old major - hardly a junior officer!) Cobras are here to stay and will soon have their lives extended at least another 25 years along with the hueys when they are more or less rebuilt as four bladed systems. They will fly higher, faster and farther. That being said, I have no desire to be a cobra pilot, rotary just is not what I want to fly.

Hey, that's cool about the Cobras..... Maybe it's my gray hair, or maybe having seen a lot of the early Cobra testing (helps when your Dad is -at that time- Airspace Officer over the facility); but I always thought they had more in them than claimed when the Apache was being brought on line.

Hornets (at least in the marine corps, the navy may very well have different missions - in fact they do) have lately relegated dog fighting and air to air combat to a more minor role (though it is still a major part of it) in their training. The majority of everything a marine aviator does is close air support. Heck, we (the corps) invented it and have honed it into the mastery that it is! Don't believe me? Go read "Hornets Over Kuwait" by Jay A. Stout. Tell me how many air to air missions he describes. The Hornet squadron we share a hangar with is in Iraq right now, how many missions other than recon or cas do you thing they pull? I can tell you right now: zero.

Now that I didn't know! But, then again, I never thought about Hornets other than in the Navy.

Air to air is still a primary mission of VMFAs, but as I am constantly told in every thing I do and every where I go in the Marine Corps: it is all about supporting the grunt on the ground in combat.

Most of the practice missions I've seen the VMF's down here running have been air-ground assault - "target softening" so the grunts can get in and do their thing. When I was living in Tucson, the name of the game for the Warthog jockeys was "extreme close-air support". Got to see a couple of their training missions - I swear some of those guys rarely strayed above 200' AGL when on-station.

skywalker · May 14, 2005

StangDreamin' said:
Hey, that's cool about the Cobras..... Maybe it's my gray hair, or maybe having seen a lot of the early Cobra testing (helps when your Dad is -at that time- Airspace Officer over the facility); but I always thought they had more in them than claimed when the Apache was being brought on line.

Cobras have been in service since the end of Vietnam, the Current Model, the AH-1W has been in service since the early to mid 90s. They will HOPEFULLY soon be replaced by the AH-1Z which will be a four bladed system using the same engines, but with a new drive system and a seriously and insanely modified airframe and 2 new weapons stations: wingtips for sidewinders.

The Huey, upon which the original cobra was based, was designed int he mid-50s and trust me, when you learn how everything works, it shows. Its current model is the UH-1N and I can't begin to imagine ho wlong they have been in service, but trust me, it is to long. It will soon be replaced by the UH-1Y which will take ont he cobra's engine pack and it's new drive system, and get a seriously modified airframe also. The kewlest new feature for it will be external aux fuel tanks. Currently they are kept in the cabin limitting passanger space, which is why hueys are generally not used for special ops missions, something that the yankee model has already been approved for. The huey will also become quieter because it will get swept blade tips - some the whiskey model cobra already has, but the November model huey does not. Trust me, the difference is insane in nosie levels. Adding the 2 extra blades also quiets them down oddly enough, causes fewer vibrations, enable shigher speeds, less strain ont he engines and allows higher altitudes.

StangDreamin' said:
Most of the practice missions I've seen the VMF's down here running have been air-ground assault - "target softening" so the grunts can get in and do their thing. When I was living in Tucson, the name of the game for the Warthog jockeys was "extreme close-air support". Got to see a couple of their traqining missions - I swear some of those guys rarely strayed above 200' AGL when on-station.

You see that ont he A-10s because their avionics systems limit them to close gun runs which are not always the best way to do things. In a helo, a gun run is GREAT! You can vary you airspeed to suit the gunner, even hover if the situation is safe enough. They still use missiles on helos. In an A-10, the aircraft is armored out the ass and built around the .50 gatlin gun. They have a history of committing fratricide with those guns too, due to their inability to properly ID targets due to poor comm systems and poor avionics. The F/A-18's A model, though not nearly as kewl for tank busting as an A-10 is much more advanced. They are VERY much capable of making gun runs with their 20 mike mike, but they are a much more precision guided system. A Hornet is much more likely to launch a missile or a small laser guided bomb at the target.

Which would I prefer? I'll take that cobra, huey or hornet. Why? If I get that cobra or huey, I know they can more easily ID the target and less likely to shoot me due to the dedicated gunners. With the hornet, I might be able to laser designate the target for him and he might not even have to leave his pattern to take it out! Also, with the A-10, I'm likely to have to wait for him to make 2 passes and pray he found the right target and not my team before he fires a shot.

t_chelle16 · May 15, 2005

I feel sorry for anyone trying to sell a house near a closing base. Prices are going to plummet. On the other hand, we're going to try selling our house in a couple of years We're really lucking out with this base staying open and most likely getting more people.

-Chelle

StangDreamin' · May 15, 2005

skywalker said:
Cobras have been in service since the end of Vietnam, the Current Model, the AH-1W has been in service since the early to mid 90s.

Yep, a lot of the final acceptance testing was done in 70-72 - at Kofa Range, YPG. I did not realize that they had made it up to the -W model.

The Huey, upon which the original cobra was based, was designed int he mid-50s and trust me, when you learn how everything works, it shows. Its current model is the UH-1N and I can't begin to imagine ho wlong they have been in service, but trust me, it is to long.

You've been TDY out here before; did you see the two Rescue birds? One's a -G model, the "new one" is a -H!

It will soon be replaced by the UH-1Y which will take ont he cobra's engine pack and it's new drive system, and get a seriously modified airframe also. The kewlest new feature for it will be external aux fuel tanks. Currently they are kept in the cabin limitting passanger space, which is why hueys are generally not used for special ops missions, something that the yankee model has already been approved for.

They gonna hang the aux tanks off the winglets you previously mentioned? (I hope)

The huey will also become quieter because it will get swept blade tips - some the whiskey model cobra already has, but the November model huey does not. Trust me, the difference is insane in nosie levels.

The "scimitar" blade profile has been around for a while (my little Taiwanese R/C plane uses them). It's much more efficient, and the tip profile seriously cuts down on tip vortices! Tip vortices at cruising RPM's quickly become supersonic - which is what causes the "whop-whop" sound heard on the ground. I'd bet that the helical pitch ratio has been possibly increased to take advantage of the swept tips at cruising RPM's - and that means more efficient use of the powerplant.

Adding the 2 extra blades also quiets them down oddly enough, causes fewer vibrations, enable shigher speeds, less strain ont he engines and allows higher altitudes.

What little tip vortex action is left from the "scimitar" profile is broken up by doubling up on the number of airfoils - even less "whop-whop". You get a greater gyroscopic action with the added rotational mass of two more blades - more flywheel effect to create more rotational torque and better vibration dampening. More "pull" from the rotor assembly with less "pull" on the powerplant.
Why did you say "oddly enough"? You've got to be beating more than vague explanations out of the test and promo dogs. If not, I'm becoming disillusioned here

You see that ont he A-10s because their avionics systems limit them to close gun runs which are not always the best way to do things. In a helo, a gun run is GREAT! You can vary you airspeed to suit the gunner, even hover if the situation is safe enough. They still use missiles on helos.

Well, yeah, the helo is a more stable platform; I wont even attempt to argue that.

In an A-10, the aircraft is armored out the ass and built around the .50 gatlin gun.

A little bigger, actually - 30 double-mike Yeah, kids, that's a 1-1/8 inch diameter slug

They have a history of committing fratricide with those guns too, due to their inability to properly ID targets due to poor comm systems and poor avionics.

No argument there, either - Warthogs just aren't as "sexy" as some laser-guided hotrod; so they don't get the refits they deserve.

The F/A-18's A model, though not nearly as kewl for tank busting as an A-10 is much more advanced. They are VERY much capable of making gun runs with their 20 mike mike, but they are a much more precision guided system. A Hornet is much more likely to launch a missile or a small laser guided bomb at the target.

See my previous comments about the sucky refit record on the 'Hog. Also, compare the helo's and Hornets to the A10's from a "survivability" standpoint. To use your term, "..armored out the ass..." - which means it can spend more time over a battlefield and less time limping home. If they could only solve the impossible dillema of the power plants sucking up so much "golden BB" FOD- which would be an issue if the Hornet dropped down that low as well

Which would I prefer? I'll take that cobra, huey or hornet. Why? If I get that cobra or huey, I know they can more easily ID the target and less likely to shoot me due to the dedicated gunners. With the hornet, I might be able to laser designate the target for him and he might not even have to leave his pattern to take it out! Also, with the A-10, I'm likely to have to wait for him to make 2 passes and pray he found the right target and not my team before he fires a shot.

I'm with you on the helo's; still a little shaky on the F18's. As far as the A10's target acquisition - well, I'm just right back at that sucky refit record. And, I gotta tell ya; the manueverabilty of the 'Hog is just plain Kew-elll. Low and slow, and it turns like somebody put a couple of jumbo turbines and a big-a$$ gun on a crop-duster biplane. If the driver's any good, those two passes you're waiting for will happen pretty doggone quickly for a jet. It can't hover, but it can turn itself around in a short time. A lot of the practices I saw had the 'Hog driving up to his FO's from over Indian Country; then snapping out a hammerhead and pulling the trigger on the bad guys from right above "his" troops. Your ears hurt a lot, but the big noise is going away from you. Try that in a Hornet! They're only close to that manueverable at insane speeds and when painted a sickly shade of blue with gold lettering.

Oh, and speaking of the Navy's "Ambassadors of the Sky"; NAF El Centro is solidly in the golden "No Touchie" column on the BRAC list. Which I guess means that somebody in the Navy's PR department has a little sway!

StangDreamin' · May 15, 2005

t_chelle16 said:
I feel sorry for anyone trying to sell a house near a closing base. Prices are going to plummet. On the other hand, we're going to try selling our house in a couple of years We're really lucking out with this base staying open and most likely getting more people.

-Chelle

No kidding. I'd try putting our house on the market today - if it wasn't such a long wait to get a new one built, or such a fight to grab one off the market! The average time from listing to offer around here is now less than 24 hours - and that 's since long before the BRAC list came out

skywalker · May 15, 2005

On the note of FOD, due you know what one of th major contributing factors to all the apache crashes in Iraq was? FOD. In particular: sand. The Cobra on the other hand just sucks sand in and spits it right back out the IPS blower. Probably why the same engine powers the Abrams.

StangDreamin' · May 15, 2005

skywalker said:
On the note of FOD, due you know what one of th major contributing factors to all the apache crashes in Iraq was? FOD. In particular: sand. The Cobra on the other hand just sucks sand in and spits it right back out the IPS blower. Probably why the same engine powers the Abrams.

Ah, but there was a minor issue with the Abrams regarding "sand injection" during Desert Storm 1. Nothing like the fuster-cluck that surrounded the Bradley, thankfully; but it did have a little problem. Both situations regarded filters sometimes clogging during battle situations. A couple of local guys (ECIII contract employees out at YPG) got a reward for backyard-engineering a fix. They modified ("scaled-up") a little trick filter that they had developed for the sand-rails they had been running out at the dunes. If I remember the story correctly, the original prototype involved Bud Light cartons, Brawny paper towels and duct tape Good old-fashioned American redneck engineering at its finest

skywalker · May 15, 2005

Thing is that there isno air filters on the T700...so those issues were probably filters with bad packings or improperly installed. The snad issues on the apache involve intake air allowing sand into the combustion chamber.

StangDreamin' · May 15, 2005

skywalker said:
Thing is that there isno air filters on the T700...so those issues were probably filters with bad packings or improperly installed. The snad issues on the apache involve intake air allowing sand into the combustion chamber.

I stand corrected (Got up late and I haven't had the requisite 4 cups of coeffe for a Sunday yet!) ; the Abrams issue was dust (sand) clogging up the cooling vents, causing overtemp problems.
However, the issue with the Bradley was, indeed, ingestion.

PS: The latest iteration of the 6-wheeled LAV (can't remember the name) has filtration designed and "beta-tested" right at Cibola Range. Got a friend working that project for the last 4 years.
It's "interesting" to say the least when I'm cruising out to Martinez Lake (north of town on the river), and have to pull my overloaded F150 work truck down from 65-0 rather abruptly; because the "crossing guard" waits until the last possible second to block Martinez Lake Road so a tank can cross! The road dissects Cibola Range away from the rest of YPG proper; much like Hwy 95 does to the Kofa Range. Fortunately, in dry periods (pretty much most of the time), you can see the dust trail leading up to the road; so you know to expect a stop. Always a trip watching the snaobirds who don't think about that dust cloud aiming towards the road. I only get surprised on those few days "post-rain".

65fastback2+2 · May 16, 2005

i wonder the same things, here in houston they are supposed to close off the F-16 fighter wing at Ellington field. So what is supposed to protect the largest port in North America and the 4th largest city in North America???

how the hell?!

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