Hunt for N\A power... need some suggestions

[pdstang2000]

Hey ppl,

So i'm doing a rebuild on my triple black 2000 GT convert.... i'm hunting for big power without forced induction, enough to beat buddy's C5 vette (doing mid 12's without his spray)

any suggestions on cam/ head setup? what kind of numbers will i be expecting (i'm hoping 330+whp)?
i wanna keep this street car, its my everyday car to go to school and work in, sooo...

so far what i have is underdrive pulleys, cai, 3.73's, o\r X, flows, short throw, diablo sport handheld...

i was thinking stage II cams and heads (maybe even stage III if available and if they will work for me), shortys( cuz dont wanna have to replace the X pipe i already have), intake manifold, 75mm TB ( or should i go with a 70mm)?

what you think? any suggestions on brands, if this setup will work for what i want (a low to mid 12 car), WILL I BEAT THE C5?

o yeah, im doing the rebuild because something is blown in there (opps, ill blame that on buddys 335i that i took out), and its been smoking bad... have to get the smoke to stop and fix what ever is broken inside, so its gonna be pulled apart anyways, might as well get this thing an upgrade!!

 

[hotstang_46]

what you've mentioned will not get you to 330 rwhp... Shame it's black ...white is worth another 10hp...

If your goal is to run with a vette doing mid twelves with the mods you mentioned I'm pretty sure most that pipe in here will agree, you need to re evaluate how your going to get there

I just did something similair.. because my car blew a plug I figured I'd upgrade..I was going to do an intake manifold(and still will) but it's a waste without FI.....unless you want to spend alot of money for an "appearance mod" that in your instance will probably rob you a tiny bit of power....

What is your budget? because you'll be spending as much as FI......depending on what's wrong with your car you could go in and fix it....buy FI and be otd at the same price...food for thought..

If you do go this route in my estimate you'll surely need spray to run with the vette... Personally having felt the before and after it made a difference ya...but not enough to justify doing it vs FI....but I went into knowing FI was a couple months down the road as well....

VT stage II cams are a no brainer if you do go that route.... Look up Cam degreeing and you'll see why you may favor those opposed to the comp cams... I'm not even going to get into that whole thing...

and BTW...I'm not 100% sure on this, but you don't need to replace your X pipe if going long tubes....just take it to a muffler shop and they'll cut her down... BTW...If your car is lowered quite a bit like mine you'll want mid length headers...If I had LT's they'd scrap by me...too many speed bumps and such

 

[COramprat]

The problem with your goal is you will have to mod your 4.6 to the point you will lose reliability in a daily driver. Even a 12 second Vette will have those issues. The only way to get to you goal and maintain your daily driver is bolt-ons (Bullitt intake or similar, long tubes, mid pipe maybe some pullies and TB, plenum combo) a mild port and port and polish head/cam setup. Subframes (better ones anyway for the vert) some weight reduction (your vert is heavy) and and decent suspension. Lower control arms are a must. And probably the biggest mod of all...DRIVER. Many races are won/lost with that mod.

 

[steedastangt]

just build a short block and throw a blower on it. If you want to stay N/A go with stage 2 heads and VT or crower cams, 4.56 gears, Long tubes, and bore your block over .002 with at least 11:1 compression. With a good tune you should come close to 330 rwhp on a dynojet. If you are racing your buddy at the track (where you should be) get a suspension that will allow for great weight transfer. There are a few brands you can go with. Also throw some axles/c clips on it so you can launch hard without blowing your rear. If you can make 315 to the rear with a good torque curve, suspension, and driver mod you should be able to hit 12.4-12.6 (with slicks). Keep in mind your lunch is key. Make your 60' goal 1.65.

C5's are fast. I have however taken them down before (must have been crappy drivers! ). With street tires and a John Doe at the wheel expect them to run mid to high 13's. If John can drive expect low 13's. I have never seen a stocker or lighly modded one break into 12's. If he has a cam then just rebuild and dont bother racing him without a blower.

Good luck!

Matt

 

[SaleenGT2001]

with 12 lbs of boost and full bolt ons i ran a 12.37.you will not run low 12's N/A no matter what you do.

he also has an advantage on you with the weight of his car.

best advice i can give you is to get a bottle

 

[DBMSTNG]

5.0 cammer engine is your best bet for N/A power.

or import the BOSS 5.4 from Australia.

 

[RedBullitt]

oh you can destroy that vette NA with 4.6 , BUT i dont think you are gonna be streetable, reliable, or a good daily driver. MAJOR weight reduction and some serious stuff under the hood and back through thedrive line will get you there.

Honestly you are looking at a motor swap or forced induction. LOTS of $ and time to keep a "nice" NA car and still run low 12s imho

 

[Winters98GT]

with 12 lbs of boost and full bolt ons i ran a 12.37.you will not run low 12's N/A no matter what you do.

he also has an advantage on you with the weight of his car.

best advice i can give you is to get a bottle

NOT TRUE

NPI guys
1 . Johnny Langton - 12.16 @ 111.44 ( 1997 T-BIRD AUTO )
2 . kdanner - 12.55 @ 106.08 ( 1996 T-BIRD AUTO )
3 . Han Solo - 12.69 @ 109.01 ( T-BIRD AUTO-PORTED NONPI )

PI guys
1 . Fastest NA 2V - 10.69 @ 127.00 ( 1999 GT 5 SPD - 302ci Mod )
2 . KenB - 10.83 @ 124.41 ( 2000 GT 5 SPD )
3 . Steve Gifford - 11.42 @ 118.00 ( GT 5 SPD )
4 . Steve Drier (Houston Performance) - 11.45 @ 115.00 ( 1995 GT AUTO - SVO HEADS/INTAKE, STROKED )
5 . starkie - 11.52 @ 116.76 ( 2001 GT 5 SPD )
6 . madmike - 11.68 @ 115.66 ( 2000 GT 5 SPD )
7 . Kurt02GT - 11.90 @ 113.29 ( 2002 GT AUTO )
8 . Ian Mullane - 11.94 @ 111.66 ( 1996 GTS 5 SPD - PI ENG )
9 . Gt - 11.95 @ 112.00 ( 2002 GT AUTO )
10 . Bill Putnam - 11.97 @ 113.20 ( 2000 GT 5 SPD )
11 . John Edwards - 11.99 @ 112.10 ( 1999 GT AUTO )
12 . Randy Stinchcomb - 11.99 @ 113.65 ( 1996 GT 5 SPD - SVO HEADS/INTAKE )
13 . TSS Racing - 12.02 @ 111.04 ( 2000 GT 5 SPD )
14 . AutomaticWeapon - 12.03 @ 112.69 ( 2001 GT 5 SPD )
15 . rrg9946 - 12.04 @ 111.00 ( 1999 GT 5 SPD )
16 . ALLMTR2V - 12.05 @ 111.27 ( 1998 GT 5 SPD - HS )
17 . code3GT - 12.09 @ 114.00 ( 2001 GT 5 SPD )
18 . Racer_X - 12.15 @ 112.90 ( 1996 GT 5 SPD - HS )
19 . Doug Johnson (Fast2v) - 12.17 @ 112.02 ( 2000 GT 5 SPD )
20 . Jeff99GT - 12.18 @ 109.30 ( 1999 GT 5 SPD )
21 . John Vanover - 12.23 @ 108.99 ( 1999 GT AUTO )
22 . Kurgan - 12.24 @ 110.03 ( 2001 GT 5 SPD )
23 . Lazer Red 99 GT - 12.25 @ 110.31 ( 1999 GT 5 SPD - VT cams )
24 . Shane Williams - 12.25 @ 110.00 ( 1999 GT AUTO )
25 . Gary Youngblood - 12.26 @ 108.00 ( 2001 GT AUTO )
26 . TruBlu01 - 12.39 @ 108.89 ( 2001 GT 5 SPD )
27 . wiz03gt - 12.45 @ 108.03 ( 2003 GT 5 SPD - SOLD )
28 . silver2k2gt - 12.47 @ 107.68 ( 2002 GT AUTO )
29 . RavenGT - 12.50 @ 106.80 ( 2000 GT 5 SPD - SOLD )

you can do it, but its going to take some heads, cams, gears, weight reduction, etc and lots of practice, ls1's will dyno 340-350+ with bolt ons, and a tad more with an ls6 intake and a cam. Pretty standard stuff. what does he have done and What is your buddies trap speed? 60ft? that stuff is important to know when your racing somebody.

btw, a head/cam car can be made very reliable, Ive done it.

 

[the98stang]

First off, those guys are super good drivers. Secondly, their cars are probably gutted to the max, and not plausible for a daily driver. To come even CLOSE to 400whp NA you need stage 3 heads, aggressive cams, and every single bolt on known to man. Not to mention about 10 grand in suspension work. In the end, a blower/nitrous/turbo is the way to go, if you want to spend less money.

 

[pdstang2000]

well first off, thanks for all the input

seems as tho i wont be beating the vette (his mods include LT's, TB, vararam, short throw, wires, intake manifold, catback, damn too many more to list)

but atleast i know what i need to do in future, which is forced induction... ill wait till i finish school so i got some money to play with.... till then i think i need to repair what ever i messed up inside my poor car, im gonna go with a stroker kit it seems (something from VT or MMR) and a mild cam possibly stage I, i hear they good throughout the entire power band. Hopefully the car will be something that i can rely on and mod in the future so i can get some serious power. Im gonna stick with stock intake manifold cuz ive been hearing too much bout how its not worth it, and gonna go with shorties as well.... i want the louder growl, and i already scrap speedbumps as it is... atleast hopefully i can keep up with the vette alittle ... as for driver for driver, i think ill do ok.... best ive done on a gtech pro is a 13.5 with full tank and a passenger....

anyways, any suggestions on the stoker kit i should go for.... what compression and cam setup considering i will hopefully throw a blower on it in the next couple years... and should i even do the heads?

 

[pdstang2000]

also... is there still no aftermarket head to replace the pi heads out there?

 

[the98stang]

anyways, any suggestions on the stoker kit i should go for.... what compression and cam setup considering i will hopefully throw a blower on it in the next couple years... and should i even do the heads?

MMR 900 with 8:5 ratio and stage 2/3 heads with blower cams would be a nice setup. If you want more than 500whp, you will need after market heads, because the stock PI heads are pretty restrictive.

 

[BurningRubber]

No "aftermarket" heads, just ported PI castings. SVO sells heads that are a different cast but thats within Ford. However, they are very good heads... very expensive and require a matching intake manifold ($$$$$$) if I remember correctly.

 

[the98stang]

No "aftermarket" heads, just ported PI castings. SVO sells heads that are a different cast but thats within Ford. However, they are very good heads... very expensive and require a matching intake manifold ($$$$$$) if I remember correctly.

Yep you would need the SVO intake manifold for those heads.

 

[TGJ]

12.16 2 111 MPH with a NPI 4.6L auto in a 3700 pound TBird. That is what Johnny Langton's car did and that was posted in this thread. That car is not gutted and is a daily driver. That said I have personally driven that TBird...

No you don't need the SVO intake for SVO heads...

 

[TGJ]

I have 330+ RWHP N/A with Cats in my TBird, the car is a daily driver currently and has no driveability issues. My car is an auto with a 4500 RPM Stall TC and 4.30's so you can do it...

If you want to dispute this with me, consider this, the car has been driven from Regina Saskatchewan Canada all the way to Orange Texas with it's current configuration. I would personally prefer this car for that trip over my 2005 mustang GT.

That said, I have a 5.0L Big-Bore with approx. 10.8:1 Compression ratio, P&P NPI heads, Crower Stg 2 PI SC cams, Kooks mid-length headers for a TBird and a plastic PI intake. I plan on adding a ported SVO intake at some point and should be in the 360 RWHP range and N/A...

If you are looking to stay N/A, you are wasting money and time considering a stroker.

 

[superstang01]

i would suggest going S/C....its so much easier, and cheaper in the long run

 

[mustanggt3685]

Maybe do a 4V swap if one can be located?

 

[Winters98GT]

First off, those guys are super good drivers. Secondly, their cars are probably gutted to the max, and not plausible for a daily driver. To come even CLOSE to 400whp NA you need stage 3 heads, aggressive cams, and every single bolt on known to man. Not to mention about 10 grand in suspension work. In the end, a blower/nitrous/turbo is the way to go, if you want to spend less money.

Most of what you have been saying, isnt true.

Who said anything about 400rwhp? 400rwhp should get you way past low to mid 12's and deep in the 11's. You dont have to have a gutted car. weight reduction and a gutted car are two different things.

10 grand in suspension work I don't think so......

aslo, TGJ is correct on the svo intake/head. The ports are the same, you can use the svo intake on NPI heads, or SVO heads with a NPI intake.


If you dont know what your talking about, dont post misleading information.

 

[TGJ]

aslo, TGJ is correct on the svo intake/head. The ports are the same, you can use the svo intake on NPI heads, or SVO heads with a NPI intake.

Well that is not exactly what I meant. You can use any 2V intake with any 2V head. Sure the ports may not line up exactly when using a PI intake with the NPI head intake ports, but it is not a big HP difference. This has been done and tested. The easiest way is to use a PI style intake on NPI/SVO heads is to use PI intake gaskets and a little RTV around the coolant ports to get a perfect seal. The only NPI intake worth using is the SVO intake.

Johnny Langton was the first to swap a PI intake on his NPI headed car. I too swapped a PI intake on a NPI headed car shortly after. This is a uprising swap now, putting PI cams and PI intake on a NPI headed car. They are a cheap mod that puts the NPI headed cars on almost equal footing as PI headed cars with the same compression ratio and bolt-on mods.

That is what I meant, I would not be afraid to put a Bullitt intake or Trickflow or RR on a SVO headed car. It does not have to be the SVO intake...