I'm extremely bored, so here's my engine plans for your review

baglock1 · Mar 9, 2004

I'm sitting down in Miami waiting to hop on a plane and I'm bored bored bored. Of course, my mind starts gravitating towards the motor for the GTS. The suspension is pretty much all done and so the motor is going to be started real soon. Of course I haven't sat down to figure the details (TB/Injector size, etc) but here's the basics:

Dart aluminum block
331 rotating assembly (I finally decided that 16 extra cubes were an easy trade-off for a little extra reliability at my targeted hp)
AFR 185's (considering 205's)
Roush 3-piece intake
Twin turbo system (details still to be ironed out)
This is all going to be balanced for 10K rpm, figuring on 8K typical operation(there is NOTHING like a high boost, high revvin' V8)

I'm looking for 750 rwhp on pump gas. Not too bad for a daily driven, fun car, huh?

This will all be mated to a Viper Spec T56 going through 3.73's, Torsen T2, and 31 spine axles.

VibrantRedGT · Mar 9, 2004

That's a rough guestimate of over $12,000 worth of stuff. Congrats, you think like me.

baglock1 · Mar 9, 2004

VibrantRedGT said:
That's a rough guestimate of over $12,000 worth of stuff. Congrats, you think like me.

You forgot the added expense of the balance job and machine work for the block . I'm budgeting 18K for the motor.

VibrantRedGT · Mar 9, 2004

baglock1 said:
You forgot the added expense of the balance job and machine work for the block . I'm budgeting 18K for the motor.

YOU-
"Hey honey is it OK to put 4 times as much money into the car then what it's worth?"

The Pants (WIFE)
"Sure, go ahead, I trust you."

rudeone707 · Mar 9, 2004

VibrantRedGT said:
The Pants (WIFE)

cobrabuilder · Mar 9, 2004

You may consider a single turbo opposed to a twin setup. A friend of mine had twin tubos on his coupe for about 6 months, changed to a single and likes it much more. I would ask some people with twin and single turbo setups and see what fit's your needs the best.

Rel · Mar 9, 2004

cobrabuilder said:
You may consider a single turbo opposed to a twin setup. A friend of mine had twin tubos on his coupe for about 6 months, changed to a single and likes it much more. I would ask some people with twin and single turbo setups and see what fit's your needs the best.

I thought two is always better than one...? Stupid gum commercials are lying to me.. I knew it!

swingline · Mar 9, 2004

The only thing you might reconsider is the 3.73's. With that boost you might want 3.55's. I guess it just depends how much/far you will be driving it.

yellow1995Cobra · Mar 9, 2004

swingline said:
The only thing you might reconsider is the 3.73's. With that boost you might want 3.55's. I guess it just depends how much/far you will be driving it.

Dont forget he plans to turn 8-10k rpm, plus the viper 6 spd, who knows if 3.73's will even be enough gear.

Fast94Cobra · Mar 9, 2004

wow... all i can say is that is going to be sick... i figure if i keep my grades up and do decent on my lsats ill be buying engines like that someday...

Joes95GT · Mar 9, 2004

Sounds sweet. I would defintely get the 205s, and would possibly look into the 225s if the car is going to be a race only, trailored car. Remember, your going to need custom headers with the 205 or 225 because of the raised exhaust ports, so factor in the 500 bucks for them. Good luck.

Joe

DirtyD916 · Mar 9, 2004

i would throwout the twin turbo idea and just invest in one very large T51R turbocharger.

baglock1 · Mar 10, 2004

Ahhh, after a loong plane ride, this post is coming from Chile! Anyways...

The twin vs single turbo has been a long running debate with me. Since this will not be done from a kit, the lack of TT kits on the market isn't a setback. But considering I'll be doing all of the work myself with the exception of the turbo, there are still issues to be ironed out with the builder. That will probably be done by Lugo's in central Florida. They've got the experience in both singles and twins and my experience with them in the past has been positive.

At this time, my main desire for a twin setup is less lag than a single. And yes, I'm well aware that a properly built turbo setup has very very little lag, but there is no denying that twins spool faster... whether by a 1/4 second or a 1/10 of a second, they're faster. And admittedly, the relative rareness of TT's in 94-95 mustangs is a deciding factor as well. Another concern is that my playtime usually happens on the road courses, not the 1/4 mile. The torque curve needs to be a bit smoother, something I feel is easier to accomplish with the twins (and a damn fine FMU!)

I still may do the single route, but only if cost becomes a major factor (like the TT setup being about a grand more).

As far as the gears, keep in mind that 6th in the viper T56 is a .50:1. While a gear set other than 3.73's may look attractive, I feel they'll give me the RPM range I want in each tranny gear (and still give me a smokin' top speed!) for both daily driving and playtime.

The heads... I feel the 225's are just too much for what I'm envisioning. The intake is designed for topend, but I still want at least a remotely comfortable daily driver. I think the 225's would demand a grind for the cam that would be too much. As you mentioned Joe, if it were a trailored track car, then heck yeah. I'd run the 225's, hit the boost a tad higher and run Sunoco to the tune of around 950-1050 hp. But I think that may be a bit too much. Yeah, I say that now...

yellow1995Cobra · Mar 10, 2004

YOu think this 10k rpm, 800 hp car is gonna be a daily driver???? Thats just crazy, with all that power comes problems. I would never consider a car like that a daily driver. Make sure you have a back up car!!

Anyways, you must have one gooood job, cause that is a ton of money in parts, and dont forget that everything costs twice as much as originally planned.

95snoozer · Mar 11, 2004

good luck putting any of that power to the ground on the street

Oh yeah, and good luck with that tranny

dont mind me, I am just jealous, but I am realistic

red94fiveo · Mar 11, 2004

You have just put together my dream combination of any engine. I always wanted an all aluminum 331 with a sweet Griggs setup! Now if I only had the budget for it....

One question - Are there going to be any problems running an aluminum block with boost? Didn't they switch to Iron on the 03 Cobra b/c of some disasters with boosted aluminum ones.

I can wait to see the number on that engine though. What kind of internals and vavletrain will you need to get to make it be able to spin that high?

baglock1 · Mar 11, 2004

yellow1995Cobra said:
YOu think this 10k rpm, 800 hp car is gonna be a daily driver????

I've seen 1200+ hp cars with nice smooth idles that, while twitchy, were fine on the street. The secret (or so I've been led to believe) is ditching the crappy Ford EEC system. I'm not completely ignorant to the issues of reliability coupled with high power. But it can be reasonably accomplished with enough money...

Oh yeah, and good luck with that tranny

Actually, I'm not at all concerned with the tranny. Plenty of people are running the Viper T56 with my envisioned power levels and much more. IMO, the tranny is the least of my worries.

One question - Are there going to be any problems running an aluminum block with boost? Didn't they switch to Iron on the 03 Cobra b/c of some disasters with boosted aluminum ones.

Apples and oranges. The Dart blocks are designed for high power. In fact, the tech at Dart couldn't give me a figure for how much power it would take before grenading. When I said I was looking at somewhere around 750, he laughed and asked if that was all.

The problem with the aluminum modular blocks is that:
1. They were never designed for that power level
2. The cooling design (water jacket design) never anticipated the higher temps associated with boost. Most failures of the block were found at the 7-8 cylinder wall area which is coincidently a hot spot for the block.

Keep in mind though, that my info on the modular aluminum blocks is coming from what I read of the Aviator recall which used the same blocks as the early boosted cobra (and the two were recalled at nearly the same time, coincidence?) And coincidently, I think cooling is going to be one of my major issues as living in Florida tends to expose me to some warm days.

While I'm sure that I will have my fair share of problems with this car (if it ever makes it to that level anyways) I'm confident that a high power car can be built and still be maintained as a reasonable daily driver. It's typical for ANY car build up to have it's problems, some worse than others. I'm sure this will be no different. However I also feel that, done properly, a reliable 750 hp car is very possible. It just can't be done by three buddies spilling beer all over themselves, and the car, while saying, "Hurry up man, the game is almost starting!" Maybe we'll find out...

A question for the (rightful) skeptics though: What point (power wise) would you consider too much for a daily driver, and why?

Joes95GT · Mar 11, 2004

baglock1 said:
A question for the (rightful) skeptics though: What point (power wise) would you consider too much for a daily driver, and why?

None. It's all in the combination, more specifically, the cam combination with the cylinder heads and manifold. Running a wild cam is what is going to make the car lose it's street manners. With a turbo'ed car though, there is no need to run a wild cam - it's overkill. If you were going for 700 horsepower N/A, that would be different, but your getting there in a different way which makes things much easier. The high revving ability of the motor isn't going to make a difference. Do you think the S2000 has problems on the street because it can rev to 9000 RPM? Doubt it.

Joe

yellow1995Cobra · Mar 11, 2004

Joes95GT said:
None. It's all in the combination, more specifically, the cam combination with the cylinder heads and manifold. Running a wild cam is what is going to make the car lose it's street manners. With a turbo'ed car though, there is no need to run a wild cam - it's overkill. If you were going for 700 horsepower N/A, that would be different, but your getting there in a different way which makes things much easier. The high revving ability of the motor isn't going to make a difference. Do you think the S2000 has problems on the street because it can rev to 9000 RPM? Doubt it.

Joe

I see what your saying, but the S2k motor, and a 331, are far different animals.

I think a 800hp+ car, that revs to 8-10k is not gonna be a daily driver. For one there is gonna be issues. Look at all our cars that are under 500hp, seems like everyone with a power adder has issues. Its just gonna get magnified. Also, the gas mileage is gonna be rediculous.

Now this can all change, if your gonna bring the boost down nice and low on the street, and jack it up at the track.

yellow1995Cobra · Mar 11, 2004

also, what kind of not so wild cam is gonna rev to 10k?

I'm extremely bored, so here's my engine plans for your review

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