Installed the 75mm TB

stunner6910 · Jul 13, 2004

I know you just bought a 75mm TB and love it so i don't think you'll be puttin the 65mm one back on, will you be willing to sell it to me? and if you do, how much? i'm getting the cobra intake and would like a 65 instead of a 60.
thanx

also, what FP gauge did you get and where? was it too hard installing it?

GTJake · Jul 13, 2004

twittmer said:
Where is JakeGT getting 46 hp and 26 tq from over Hairy Canary? Plus, I don't think JakeGT has dyno'd with the new 75mm throttle body yet, so the difference could be even greater.

What am I missing?

Ted

My Performer was ported by Tom Moss and our cams are far from the same.

Jake

zenboy99 · Jul 13, 2004

Ed Curtis doesn't grind all his cams the same for similar combos. It depends on what kind of driveability/power you want. Plus different dynos can fluctuate in numbers.

twittmer · Jul 13, 2004

Thanks.

Link or email for Tom Moss?

I realize Ed's cams are custom and are different for each applcation, however, give me some specifics on what you asked for from Ed that will give you 46 hp and 26 tq more than HairyCanary. In other words, how different can your goals be than HairyCanary's?. Essentially, what did you ask for?

For reference, my dyno numbers are:

270 rwhp
305 rwtq

vs. HairyCanary

279 rwhp
315 rwtq

To make those numbers, I have stock Mass Air, stock H-pipe with cats, stock cam, and stock mufflers, with MAC shortie unequal length headers, and stock computer.

So, with HairyCanary's addtion of 75 mm mass air, Magnaflow catted H-pipe, BBK chrome longtube headers, and Ed's Custom FTI cam, with tweecer tune, he only made 9 rwhp and 10 rwtq more than I did?

I'm just trying to understand the disconnect....as I would expect his numbers to be much closer to yours than mine with all those extra parts over me.

See my point?

GTJake · Jul 13, 2004

Area under the curve is alot different than peak power. I could care less what my car makes on the dyno. I want some good track times. I think you'll see that Paul's car outperforms alot of other cars with his "low dyno numbers."

In short I asked Ed for high 11's out of my combo on slicks and skinnies. Hopefully with some suspension mods and practice I can get there in the next few years.

Jake

GTJake · Jul 13, 2004

twittmer said:
Thanks.

Link or email for Tom Moss?

http://tmossporting.bravepages.com/index.html

zenboy99 · Jul 13, 2004

Make sure you're comparing SAE to SAE, or real numbers to real numbers. You also have to take into consideration the shape of the torque curve, thats what Ed's cams are known for.

I believe Killer's SAE numbers are over 300rwhp.

94DreamGT · Jul 13, 2004

Jake...why did you go 75mm? IMO that is too big for a NA 302 and there have been dyno tests proven that you don't really gain any going bigger than what you need and it can actually lose low-end.

Also...I'd be weary on running the filter open like that with the headlight removed. You might have better luck, but I had the same thing with my big filter exposed at the end of my Morphues PowerPipe right in the opening to the passenger side foglight. I ran it at the track before and after removing the foglight housing so it had "direct air" straight into the filter. Not only did it lose low some power, but it made the car act real screwy...like too much air was trying to be forced into the MAF and not consistent. Maybe it was just my experience but I put the foglight and housign back in to block the air and it ran much better.

And last...not to sound like I'm bashing you...but I still don't see the power benefits of going with the Fox intake. I agree you have a better TB choice, it's cleaner and easier to work around, but that 90* bend can't be better than the bend from a SN95 intake. I am truly not a believer of "seat of the pants" feels because not only has it fooled the crap out of me in my own car, but I've ridden in many cars that you can't tell anything from feel. Any F-body feels slow as crap in my opinon...even some of the 10second ones I've been in don't feel any faster than my car now.

twittmer · Jul 13, 2004

Thanks for the link to Tom Moss. I will look into that.

Guys, I think I'm onto something here, though.

I know you guys could care less about peak numbers, it's all area under the curve and I agree with you.

We all want the most power under the curve, right?

That being said, here is HairyCanary's dyno

http://stults.com/95GT/

vs.

My Dyno

http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=346197

so that you can the area under the curve back to back.

Now you can see the virually identical SAE numbers, chart, and area under the curve back to back for yourself and realize they are nearly identical.

Remember the differences in our combo's:

I have stock Mass Air, stock H-pipe with cats, stock cam, and stock mufflers, with MAC shortie unequal length headers, and stock computer.

HairyCanary's combo includes the following upgrades over mine: addtion of 75 mm mass air, Magnaflow catted H-pipe, BBK chrome longtube headers, and Ed's Custom FTI cam, with tweecer tune over my combo.

Check the graphs and let me know what you think.

Also, thanks for the tips on what you asked Ed for with the cam. I know I will be pursuing that route in the future and need to know what to tell him. I know I want my "area under the curve" to more resemble what you have GTJake.

BTW, I got my AFR's from Ed, too.

twittmer · Jul 13, 2004

zenboy99 said:
Make sure you're comparing SAE to SAE, or real numbers to real numbers. You also have to take into consideration the shape of the torque curve, thats what Ed's cams are known for.

I believe Killer's SAE numbers are over 300rwhp.

zenboy99 - I know I said Killer Canary, but I was referring to HairyCanary, sorry for the confusion.

Grn92LX · Jul 13, 2004

94DreamGT said:
Jake...why did you go 75mm? IMO that is too big for a NA 302 and there have been dyno tests proven that you don't really gain any going bigger than what you need and it can actually lose low-end.

Not true at all man. He has all good stuff in his car AND port matched his inlet for the 75mm TB. I bet those dyno runs youi mentioned didnt have port matched inlets. 75mm IS what his car needs, it might not be a huge gain, but i'd say 5-7rwhp. Most 5.0L guru's who know what they're talking about always recommend a 75mm TB for cars like his, mine and yours. Ed recommended a 75mm for mine as well. Go on hardcore50.com and they'll probably set you straight on that "big" TB myth thats roaming sround on the internet. If my plans work out with the 347 i'm planning, ill most likely be doing a 75mm Race TB which is 90mm at the opening and 75mm at the blade. If not, i'll just do a standard 75mm TB on my car now, my 65mm is too small.

tmoss · Jul 13, 2004

twittmer said:
Thanks.

Link or email for Tom Moss?

Right here - just PM me if you need to talk about intakes - or check out the website in my signature and use the email link tro me there.

94DreamGT · Jul 13, 2004

Grn92LX said:
Not true at all man. He has all good stuff in his car AND port matched his inlet for the 75mm TB. I bet those dyno runs youi mentioned didnt have port matched inlets. 75mm IS what his car needs, it might not be a huge gain, but i'd say 5-7rwhp. Most 5.0L guru's who know what they're talking about always recommend a 75mm TB for cars like his, mine and yours. Ed recommended a 75mm for mine as well. Go on hardcore50.com and they'll probably set you straight on that "big" TB myth thats roaming sround on the internet. If my plans work out with the 347 i'm planning, ill most likely be doing a 75mm Race TB which is 90mm at the opening and 75mm at the blade. If not, i'll just do a standard 75mm TB on my car now, my 65mm is too small.

I never believe Internet myths...nor what people say. I follow results from what I've seen with my own eyes. Sounds almost like your going by what people are "saying" on other boards. If they have proven results, then that is another thing.

I distinctly remember an article from MM&FF that showed a H/C/I car with a 65mm and they had it on a dyno, then swapped on a 70mm with no other changeds. Zero change in HP and maybe half a foot-lb. lost in torque. They said a 75mm would of produced even worse results.

I'll try to dig up that article and find it.

twittmer · Jul 13, 2004

Thanks tmoss, that's helpful info!

So, with similar combo's, the following are what I think are representative of an Ed Curtis package:

zenboy99 - 304.6rwhp 338rwtq

1995 Mustang GT 5 spd

-Trick Flow TW head w/spring upgrade
-FTI custom cam, Comp Pro Mag rockers
-Performer Intake w/ FMS 65mm throttle body
-Pro-M 80mm w/ 24lb injectors, AFM power pipe
-FMS ceramic headers, Flowmasters, Mac o/r H-pipe
-FMS 3.73 gears, FMS Aluminum driveshaft
-Steeda Sport springs, Tokico shocks/struts, 03 Cobra wheels
-JMS custom chip

94DreamGT - 304rwhp 331rwtq

Laser Red 94 GT

FTI AFR 165’s 55cc, FTI Custom Cam, Cobra Intake, FRPP 65mm TB, Scorpion 1.6 RR’s, Pro-M 77 MAF & 24lb’s, Kirban AFPR, Walbro GSS340 FP, Morpheus NA PowerPipe, Underdrives, Romac Balancer, BBK 1 5/8” CC Longtubes, BBK Off-Road H-pipe, Flowmasters, SPEC Stage 2, UPR Quad/Adj., 3.73’s, Eibach Pro-Kit, 98 SVT Cobra Wheels, Nitto 275/40/17 DR’s

GTJake - 325rwhp 341rwtq

1994 Mustang GT

AFR 165cc, 58cc Heads
Custom Ed Curtis Cam
Edelbrock Performer 5.0 (Tom Moss Ported Lower)
Accufab 75mm Throttle Body (fox style)
Comp Cams Pro Magnum 1.6 ratio Roller Rockers
Rollmaster Timng Chain
Richmond 3.73 Gears
March Underdrive Pulleys
MAC Long Tube Headers
MAC Pro-Chamber
MAC Cat-Back
Homemade Cold Air
Kirban Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator
Jegs Fuel Pressure Gauge
Steeda Tri-Ax Shifter

Killercanary - 292.4 RWHP 327.9 RWTQ

AFR 165 heads, FTI custom cam, E-brock Performer, 65mm t-body, 75mm MAF, 24lb injectors, 190lph FP, shorty headers, o/r X pipe, dynomax race magnum mufflers, stock tail pipes, aluminum drive shaft, ASP pulleys, 4.10's, TKO, 31 spline Superior axles, eaton posi, 63K mile stock short block

With GTJake taking the edge with about 20 rwhp/10 rwtq more than the others due to some intake porting and MAC exhaust.

Looks like tmoss gives the H/C/I guys the edge!

I assume most people asked Ed to design their cams for their cars to run high 11's on slicks & skinnies? Or did you guys specify some other things from Ed when ordering your custom cam?

GTJake, I'd be interested in seeing your new dyno with the 75mm Throttle Body setup!

tmoss · Jul 13, 2004

twittmer said:
Looks like tmoss gives the H/C/I guys the edge!

The intake is only part of the combination and you can't really attribute all that difference to me - it may be a big part and it may not. Any good porter can give an edge, but it's the whole combination that results in the numbers.

Grn92LX · Jul 13, 2004

94DreamGT said:
I never believe Internet myths...nor what people say. I follow results from what I've seen with my own eyes. Sounds almost like your going by what people are "saying" on other boards. If they have proven results, then that is another thing.

I distinctly remember an article from MM&FF that showed a H/C/I car with a 65mm and they had it on a dyno, then swapped on a 70mm with no other changeds. Zero change in HP and maybe half a foot-lb. lost in torque. They said a 75mm would of produced even worse results.

I'll try to dig up that article and find it.

I wonder what intake they used?

Anyway, I go by what knowledgeable racers AND engine builder and cam designers say. You know, guys like ed curtis, brian from hi tech motorsports, jay allen. I take what they say and know over what some 17 year old from stangnet posts about (not you, just an example) Like I said, 75mm IS what he needs and im sure ed didnt recommend it to him so he'll make less power, ed knows his stuff (as you realized owning his cam) so the 75mm is obviously what he needs. Theres a guy on here noslo50 that posted gains on his h/c/i car, gaining 8rwhp with a 65mm to 75mm TB swap on his tiny 306.

twittmer · Jul 13, 2004

tmoss

I understand what you are saying. It just seems GTJake has a clear advantage and with all the combo's listed being so similar, I am looking for the differences.

The more info, the better, you agree?

swingline · Jul 13, 2004

You can take three different cars with almost the same combo and they will dyno differently. Plus not all dynos are the same. The times are more important than the numbers they put down.

twittmer · Jul 13, 2004

swingline said:
You can take three different cars with almost the same combo and they will dyno differently. Plus not all dynos are the same. The times are more important than the numbers they put down.

swingline - good point, but we have to have some way to compare these cars. looking at it your way assumes the drivers are the consistent factor. not true. in reality, we have to look at all the information together to form an overall opinion.

i think GTJake's dyno advantage is more than dyno error, though. if his dyno is off by 20 hp, i recommend another dyno tuner.

ted

Rootus · Jul 13, 2004

twittmer said:
I'm just trying to understand the disconnect....as I would expect his numbers to be much closer to yours than mine with all those extra parts over me

I have good power on the bottom end, but it doesn't hold up on the top end. I wish my engine made more power too, and I think it should be making more than 280 -- but that's life . It may be that my engine is tired (it shouldn't be, only 110k miles). This winter I plan to tune it for more than 300 at the wheels. If that means dropping in a stroker, so be it...

Dave

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