Just Getting Started

Mindcrime · Aug 4, 2011

Hello everyone, I am brand new to the forum and I just got my car a few weeks ago. It's a 2004 gt, bone stock w 28,000 original miles. I figure it to be around 220 rwhp as is at most... I have read alot of posts about bolt-ons and looked at the numbers generated from the obvious ones. I am not impressed enough to spend a few thousand on the basic stuff and wonder if it would be best to start internally instead? Crank, pistons, rods, cams, and heads. Or is it best to just buy a blueprinted long block? I want to start at around 400 hp with the flexibility to add a supercharger down the road. I just got outrun by a frickin GTi Volkswagen for cryin out loud... this is not supposed to happen to a car with the pedigree of a Mustang. I refuse to stand by and let such an atrocity go with no action whatsoever. Even if this guy had major cash in this car it should not outrun a Mustang. Perhaps it is my fault for settling on a stock gt, but even so I am in shock that something like that can happen at all. My 90' lx coupe would outrun this thing, and I do not understand how that is. I love this bodystyle but, these mod motors are not what I thought they were. Is it just the 2v? And before someone tells me to just buy a coyote and do a swap, I can only drop about $4500 initially, and add on every 6-8 months. I prefer n/a, but at some point I will have to go SC to keep up, and keep my daily driver... any legit ideas?

Deleted member 38176 · Aug 5, 2011

Your car isn't running right. I've never had any problem putting GTI's in their place, even when I only had a cat-back exhaust. Instead of worrying about mods, I'd worry about getting the car running correctly.

Rick 91GT · Aug 5, 2011

Is it an auto or manual?

Mindcrime · Aug 5, 2011

Manual

LastCallRacing · Aug 5, 2011

You never know what that GTi had in it. If he was running upgraded turbo and/or high boost, they can potentially be quick. Quick being relative to a bone stock GT that is.

Don't be too upset though, there are plenty of mods available for you to get much faster.

An intercooled supercharger kit is a quick way to get 400rwhp. You can put one on a stock engine as long as there are no problems with the engine as it is.

Mindcrime · Aug 5, 2011

Well you are right, it could have been a beast... I definitely do not want a supercharger on this stock motor. It would be a gamble in my opinion to do that. I need internals, and heads, plus a few suspension and handling upgrades first. I really wish I could get 400 rwhp outta this thing naturally aspirated without killing myself on mpg and daily drivability... I have even considered getting rid of this car and going to the Fox body cars again. They are so much better in my opinion.

88gt88 · Aug 5, 2011

Its not always about power. I had a bone stock 2000 gt five speed. I put a slp catback on it and nitto drag radials and ran a 13.9 at 99 at the track with only a 2.1 60ft. I shifted the hell out of the thing. Everyone told me mid 14 sec car. Under the hood is untouched, everything is motorcraft down to the air filter and plugs. Im gonna focus on suspension and gearing first. That seems to be the best bang for the buck.

trinity_gt · Aug 5, 2011

My daily is a 2002 1.8T GTI. With the stock turbo and a "chip" that ups boost into the 20psi range, you can get a decently quick little car with short legs. However, if you step up to a GT35R or a similar "big turbo" you can easily get to 300HP at the wheels on the stock internals. Upgrade the rods (pistons and crank stay the same) and 400+ wheel HP are not out of the question. Turbos are the great equalizer for small engines.

A bone-stock PI Mustang GT will make 220-230 at the wheels (less if it's an automatic). It wouldn't take much modifying to get a 1.8T or newer 2.0T GTI to beat a stock MGT.

Don't bother trying to build a 400rwHP normally aspirated engine. You're working with only 281 cubic inches and to move that sort of air without external assistance you'll need lots of RPM and lots of compression. To get there you'll need far more money than a blower would cost and the resulting compression ratio would not be blower-friendly later.

My recommendation is to put your money into a blower on the stock shortblock. I've got a KB 1.7 on mine at ~9psi and am making ~400 at the wheels. It's pretty reliable -- many people have similar setups -- with a conservative tune and I didn't need to open up the engine at all (although it does have Comp 262AH cams from my pre-blower days...)

If I hurt the engine most likely I'd get a shortblock specifically built for blower (read "a blower-friendly compression ratio using forged pistons and H-beams..."). With a high-compression normally-aspirated shortblock you're going to have detonation issues on pump gas with a blower in the future.

I can't speak for others but to me 400HP at the wheels is plenty for a street-driven car. I know the common wisdom is to shoot for the moon and to emulate the Streetfire "heroes" but the fact is that you can easily get yourself into plenty of trouble with "only" 400 on city streets. And the car is plenty of fun, gets sideways in 2nd and 3rd already etc etc. When HP levels start escalating you'll find the expenses do too: fuel system, chassis, suspension, driveline etc etc...everything will start to need upgrading.

So I think the sensible approach is to shelve the 400HP n/a target, put a blower on the stock s/b and enjoy it. But that's just me

1fun281 · Aug 5, 2011

My bone stock 99 went 13.8 at 99 with some mckey thompsons, theyre not mid 14 second cars at all, that being said your best bet would be for n/a stock motor long tubes full suspension, ported heads a good set of cams and a mean gear meaning 4.30+ and a dyno tune moving the limiter to about 6800 rpms, and shifting the brains out of it at the track, that will be your best bet on leaving the stock motor N/A

Or could just buy a vortech and some 3.73's, suspension and long tubes, and enjoy life! Haha plenty of routes you can take with a mod motor
Just remember they love rpms!

Mindcrime · Aug 5, 2011

trinity_gt said:
My daily is a 2002 1.8T GTI. With the stock turbo and a "chip" that ups boost into the 20psi range, you can get a decently quick little car with short legs. However, if you step up to a GT35R or a similar "big turbo" you can easily get to 300HP at the wheels on the stock internals. Upgrade the rods (pistons and crank stay the same) and 400+ wheel HP are not out of the question. Turbos are the great equalizer for small engines.

A bone-stock PI Mustang GT will make 220-230 at the wheels (less if it's an automatic). It wouldn't take much modifying to get a 1.8T or newer 2.0T GTI to beat a stock MGT.

Don't bother trying to build a 400rwHP normally aspirated engine. You're working with only 281 cubic inches and to move that sort of air without external assistance you'll need lots of RPM and lots of compression. To get there you'll need far more money than a blower would cost and the resulting compression ratio would not be blower-friendly later.

My recommendation is to put your money into a blower on the stock shortblock. I've got a KB 1.7 on mine at ~9psi and am making ~400 at the wheels. It's pretty reliable -- many people have similar setups -- with a conservative tune and I didn't need to open up the engine at all (although it does have Comp 262AH cams from my pre-blower days...)

If I hurt the engine most likely I'd get a shortblock specifically built for blower (read "a blower-friendly compression ratio using forged pistons and H-beams..."). With a high-compression normally-aspirated shortblock you're going to have detonation issues on pump gas with a blower in the future.

I can't speak for others but to me 400HP at the wheels is plenty for a street-driven car. I know the common wisdom is to shoot for the moon and to emulate the Streetfire "heroes" but the fact is that you can easily get yourself into plenty of trouble with "only" 400 on city streets. And the car is plenty of fun, gets sideways in 2nd and 3rd already etc etc. When HP levels start escalating you'll find the expenses do too: fuel system, chassis, suspension, driveline etc etc...everything will start to need upgrading.

So I think the sensible approach is to shelve the 400HP n/a target, put a blower on the stock s/b and enjoy it. But that's just me

Well it is certainly an excellent response to my original post. Thanks for the wisdom! That was very informative. Actually it is the best response I received thus far. I appreciate you taking the time to explain your point of view and giving me some great advice. I am gonna look at all my options for sure, but there are alot of things I would not consider with tunnel vision! How cool is it that the advice came from someone with the same type of car that beat me? Then they tell me how to get faster! And give it to me with valid points! That is pretty damn cool!

Deleted member 38176 · Aug 6, 2011

Why are you becoming increasingly condescending with every post? Whether or not you want to hear what pople are saying, they are giving you good advice. I'm beginning to question if you really have an 04 GT and are not just a troll.

Dark04GT · Aug 6, 2011

trinity_gt said:
So I think the sensible approach is to shelve the 400HP n/a target, put a blower on the stock s/b and enjoy it. But that's just me

+1.

Your 90' lx would not out run your new edge stock for stock. The fox body 5.0's are high 14 second cars stock the new edge is a low 14 second car. They have 225hp at the crank vs. 260hp at the crank for the new edge. The new edge out does the lx on the skid pad as well.

Mindcrime · Aug 6, 2011

Nightfire said:
Why are you becoming increasingly condescending with every post? Whether or not you want to hear what pople are saying, they are giving you good advice. I'm beginning to question if you really have an 04 GT and are not just a troll.

Well you are certainly wrong about two things. I do have the car I said I do,( if you doubt that then get one of the Houston guys to meet me somewhere to verify it.) I have no reason to pretend I own a car.. wtf? and my response was never intended to be condescending. I really do think it is cool that this person gave me the advice he gave me under the circumstances. I find it ironic that the best advice I got was from someone with the same car that outran me... if you think there is something wrong with that then I am at a loss for what to tell you. Honestly it is a little confusing to me that you are pissed cause I do not say what you want me to say. Anyway, to all the guys who are trying to help thank you, I do appreciate all your help very much.

Mindcrime · Aug 6, 2011

Dark04GT said:
+1.

Your 90' lx would not out run your new edge stock for stock. The fox body 5.0's are high 14 second cars stock the new edge is a low 14 second car. They have 225hp at the crank vs. 260hp at the crank for the new edge. The new edge out does the lx on the skid pad as well.

I just meant they have more potential all the way around. (Just my opinion of course) Plus parts are more prevalent and MUCH cheaper for a guy with a new born baby! It was alot easier to work on the Fox cars too. At least for me. I aint exactly mechanically inclined. Ha Ha

Mindcrime · Aug 6, 2011

And Trinity, I definitely think you are right on ditching the 400 rwhp n/a thing. But I think I will get my handling, suspension, tune up, etc done before I do the SC. I also drool over some new cams, Dynomax exhaust and intake... Do you think this is feasible? And my next question may sound retarded, but can you use under drive pulley's with a SC? I don't want to waste money on that if it wont work with a SC set up.

trinity_gt · Aug 6, 2011

Mindcrime said:
And Trinity, I definitely think you are right on ditching the 400 rwhp n/a thing. But I think I will get my handling, suspension, tune up, etc done before I do the SC. I also drool over some new cams, Dynomax exhaust and intake... Do you think this is feasible?

A few points to ponder:

What do you mean by "tune up"? If you mean buying something like a handheld tuner I wouldn't bother yet. You'll just need the tune re-done for a blower anyway.
Intake: If your plan is to get a blower later, I'd wait on this as well since the throttle body may end up in a different place with a blower than stock, meaning the intake you buy may not fit. If you go centri you can be sure your intake won;t work. Don't spend money now you'll just have to re-spend later.
Cams: You can get blower grinds but honestly, stock cams work fine on a blower car, especially with a stock bottom end. Basically, a blower will already produce enough power to threaten the stock bottom end without the added power of blower cams. I put my 262AHs in before I knew I was going to get a KB. If I knew that beforehand, I wouldn't have done it and saved a bundle.

And my next question may sound retarded, but can you use under drive pulley's with a SC? I don't want to waste money on that if it wont work with a SC set up.

Technically you could but why? Pulleys will net you 4-5HP at most. With a blower this is just noise. With the stock pulleys you (a) know the drive ratio of the blower and thus the boost level you should see and (b) you get the accessories - most notably the water pump - running at normal speeds.

Mindcrime · Aug 8, 2011

trinity_gt said:
A few points to ponder:

What do you mean by "tune up"? If you mean buying something like a handheld tuner I wouldn't bother yet. You'll just need the tune re-done for a blower anyway.

Intake: If your plan is to get a blower later, I'd wait on this as well since the throttle body may end up in a different place with a blower than stock, meaning the intake you buy may not fit. If you go centri you can be sure your intake won;t work. Don't spend money now you'll just have to re-spend later.

Cams: You can get blower grinds but honestly, stock cams work fine on a blower car, especially with a stock bottom end. Basically, a blower will already produce enough power to threaten the stock bottom end without the added power of blower cams. I put my 262AHs in before I knew I was going to get a KB. If I knew that beforehand, I wouldn't have done it and saved a bundle.

Technically you could but why? Pulleys will net you 4-5HP at most. With a blower this is just noise. With the stock pulleys you (a) know the drive ratio of the blower and thus the boost level you should see and (b) you get the accessories - most notably the water pump - running at normal speeds.

Trinity, just gonna change plugs, fluids, filters, and stuff like that. No tunes yet. I am gonna take your advice. Just do what needs to be done and no more. No sense spending money where it's not needed

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