Kind of a dumb question, but...

cougar694u · Jun 20, 2005

I searched and couldn't find a definate answer.

I have a 351w in my cougar and was curious about the roller cam conversion. I was reading in Muscle Mustangs & Fast Fords about a 408 they built (stroked 351) and they drilled and tapped the block for the stock spider from a roller 302. My question is this, can I just get the roller lifters, keepers (whatever those locks are called that keep the lifters from spinning), that 'spider' (as they called it), and drill/tap my block for it and that's it? If the lifters install that easy, what about the cam, do I need to change the cam bearings from a 351w non-roller cam to a 5.0/5.8 roller cam?

Sorry if these are stupid questions, but I assume it'll work, I just want to know for sure.

I don't really want to go with those mechanical roller lifters that are connected. My brother has them (he has to for his motor), but has to adjust them regularly, and they're noisy. If it's that simple, I'll do it, if not, I'll go with a little bigger flat tappet cam than what I've already got and stay with that.

mustangdave · Jun 20, 2005

The holes have to be drilled perfectly and there is further cost. You will need a special reduced base circle roller cam to use in your block$$$$. I have never done the conversion but have heard guys say they spent almost $1,000 by the time they were done (mechanical parts, cam, gaskets.etc...).

Bullitt · Jun 20, 2005

not an expert on this, but i did research on it a while back for a 393 i was planning.

everything you've listed is correct, but mustangdave is also correct in that you're going to need a new smaller base-circle cam. my understanding is that the lifter bores are not as tall (or a different height in relation to the cam) so you'll have issues with the lifters rising too high with a standard roller cam. i don't know if this is also true of linked lifters (that is, having to run a small base-circle cam).

cougar694u · Jun 21, 2005

Hmmm, it's something to look into. Thanks for the info guys!

Edbert · Jun 21, 2005

It would be cheaper to get a roller block (they called them 5.8s) from the mid to late 90s.

D.Hearne · Jun 21, 2005

There's two ways to rollerize a flat tappet block, either will cost you at least $600 to do it. One way is the way you've already been told with the stock parts and reduced base circle cam. The other route uses the std base circle roller cams for the 5.0's and a set of Crane's retrofit linkbar hydraulic lifters. These look like the solid rollers, but are hydraulic and don't need adjusting. They cost however $425 a set. Oh, and by the way, there are no dumb questions----------- only dumb answers

jhbus · Jun 21, 2005

I did this same conversion to a 351W. It's really not all that bad, after I made a few mistakes. Learn from mine. Crane makes lifters that are shorter, so you can use a roller cam with standard base circle (MUCH less money) and still have the lifters in the bores. I THINK (been a while, and like I said...mistakes were made at first) that they do not require the spider, so no drilling the holes and tapping them, they are tied in pairs so they don't rotate. I got my lifters from Summit Racing. They do cost more than standard lifters, but is still cheaper than the reduced base circle cam.

Oh, here is the part number from Summit CRN-36532-16

Joe

cougar694u · Jun 21, 2005

jhbus said:
I did this same conversion to a 351W. It's really not all that bad, after I made a few mistakes. Learn from mine. Crane makes lifters that are shorter, so you can use a roller cam with standard base circle (MUCH less money) and still have the lifters in the bores. I THINK (been a while, and like I said...mistakes were made at first) that they do not require the spider, so no drilling the holes and tapping them, they are tied in pairs so they don't rotate. I got my lifters from Summit Racing. They do cost more than standard lifters, but is still cheaper than the reduced base circle cam.

Oh, here is the part number from Summit CRN-36532-16

Joe

That's basically what D.Hearne said, but thanks for the part number. It's one of those things that's being planned for after this race season, so atleast I have time to save for those lifters.

Again, thanks for the info.

cougar694u · Jun 29, 2005

I had another question regarding this topic. I was looking at prices and options. I know the cam selection for the standard hydraulic roller is broad, but those lifters keep mocking me with their price Anyway, I got to looking and came up with this:

To use the smaller base circle I came up with $415.71 total.
Retrofit cam (smaller base circle) - $245.95
Roller Lifters - $119.88
Retrofit kit for above lifters - $49.88

Am I wrong in assuming those roller lifters will work. Here's what it said about them:
Ford Racing's hydraulic roller lifters feature the same high quality as the pieces that Ford uses as original equipment in the 5.0L HO EFI engine. Some are direct replacements for the OE lifters and are 50-state legal. Others are designed to be used when converting a "non-roller" block to a roller cam. Note that custom pushrods and minor clearancing work to the block may be necessary with these lifters.

The FRPP locked roller lifters are $410, while the above listed Cranes were $430, throw in a moderately priced cam of $200 (the range I looked at was $135~$275), and you're over $600.

I think I'm wrong about those regular roller lifters, so what lifters will work with that retrofit kit?

I don't really need to upgrade the cam in my car, I just want to. I've won the 14 & 13 second class with The Clash of the Titans, and I'm working on the 12 second class this year. I don't plan on going to the 11 second class with this car.

Price is the main factor. Any input is welcomed.

D.Hearne · Jun 29, 2005

You've left out the additional $50 or so for the distributor gear ( if you do this yourself) Also with this route ( reduced base circle cam) you're limited in grinds to choose from ( and cost to switch if you're not happy with the 1st choice) Also figure at least another $50 for the pushrods. Another thing to consider is Ford's stock replacement roller lifters. These work OK up to about 6000 rpms with the std base cams, possibly less with a reduced base, due to it's smaller profile which they have to follow. This is just a general asessment here, having never used a reduced base cam. I have used them in a 5.0 with the std base cams and they do not rev over 6000-6500 rpms. Crane's factory style replacements do rev higher and cost more, something like close to $200 a set. Good used FMS and Trick flow roller cams be had for around $100 also. The Z303 I've got in my 331 was bought ( new but second hand) for $115. There's usually several to choose from right here in the SN classifieds, these guys buy stuff new and decide to sell them after changing their minds all the time. I've seen B303's go for as little as $70. Great thing about rollers is they don't wear like flat tappet grinds do and can be reused many times. Ditto for the lifters.

cougar694u · Jun 29, 2005

I've got the MSD Distributor and have two gears for it (and several others laying around). It's strange to me how it can break the gear.

If I decide to change, I may just break bread and go with the linked lifters, as they have to be able to spin 7000 (I shift at 6300 and sometimes carry it above that in the traps).

The Z303 isn't much bigger than what I've got, minus the roller part, of course.

You are right, though, it's time to start saving my nickels...

D.Hearne · Jun 29, 2005

cougar694u said:
I've got the MSD Distributor and have two gears for it (and several others laying around). It's strange to me how it can break the gear.

Don't get what you mean here. If you were referring to my comment about the dist gear change, that's for the gear to match the cam's material. Steel gear for steel roller cam, iron gear for iron flat tappet cam. You can also use a bronze gear, but from everything I've heard and know about bronze, it's not a good choice for a street motor, they'd wear too fast.

HistoricMustang · Jun 29, 2005

D.Hearne said:
Don't get what you mean here. If you were referring to my comment about the dist gear change, that's for the gear to match the cam's material. Steel gear for steel roller cam, iron gear for iron flat tappet cam. You can also use a bronze gear, but from everything I've heard and know about bronze, it's not a good choice for a street motor, they'd wear too fast.

Yes, if you run a bronze gear it needs to be checked on a regular basis. I use one in the racer but it is checked quite often. This is the way to go with a flat tappet, but it must be checked!!!

HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

jerry S · Jun 30, 2005

HistoricMustang said:
Yes, if you run a bronze gear it needs to be checked on a regular basis. I use one in the racer but it is checked quite often. This is the way to go with a flat tappet, but it must be checked!!!

HistoricMustang

I was told by MSD that the bronze gears are good for up to 5,000 miles if properly installed. I have one on my distrib and am so paranoid about it going that I will replace it at 3000 miles. When I replace it, I think I will go with the new polycarbonite distributor gear. At $100, they cost 2.5x than a bronze gear but are supposed to last almost forever.

D.Hearne · Jun 30, 2005

Why not just install a steel gear? It'll last as long as the cam.

jerry S · Jun 30, 2005

D.Hearne said:
Why not just install a steel gear? It'll last as long as the cam.

Is it 100% sure that hydraulic cams have steel gears on them?

D.Hearne · Jun 30, 2005

As far as I've heard, all rollers are steel, flat tappet cams are iron. I think maybe I've got you confused with someone else I've been communicating with.

cougar694u · Jun 30, 2005

D.Hearne said:
Don't get what you mean here. If you were referring to my comment about the dist gear change, that's for the gear to match the cam's material.

Correct, we have several different gears, and shy away from the bronze ones. I'm 99% sure I've got a steel one on it already.

1967stang302 · Jun 30, 2005

D.Hearne said:
Oh, and by the way, there are no dumb questions----------- only dumb answers

For the record, there are no dumb questions, only inquisitive idiots!

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