Lean/Rich Question

Trail of Dead · Aug 7, 2006

Wow, you guys are giving me some damn good pointers! Thank you, I know what it's like to try and do work on a vehicle and constantly skin your knuckles cause you have no idea HOW its actually supposed to be done! But, I can't work on the 'stang just yet. Since my wife is in the Air Force, one of her Sgt's just stopped by to look at the car and ask specifically what the problem is, then he's gonna get on the tele and talk to the dealership and find out if they'll fix it and cover the labor as well. If they opt out, then they will get "Blacklisted" which means they will be on a list at the base to let all government employees know that they are not to do business with them cause they are shady and should've gave this car a good tune-up prior to selling it. I know they don't want that since Moody AFB gives them alot of customers. I'll keep you all posted on what happens next and how the progress of the 'stang is going. I'm an excellent computer tech and have a damn good working knowledge with electronics in general, and I'm in school majoring in criminal justice, so if ANYONE has a problem with electronics/computers or with local/federal law enforcement I will definately be more than glad to lend you a hand!!!! Thanks :SNSign:

d98gt · Aug 7, 2006

I'm also about to begin my criminal justice major to pursue a career in law enforcement (DPS)

If they aren't going to pay for it, please save yourself the money and do the oil/plugs yourself. DO NOT pay $200 to do such a simple job.

Trail of Dead · Aug 9, 2006

So, now the dealership we bought the car from is trying to say they did a 21-point tune-up/inspection on this Mustang. If they did, what would make the oil become contaminated so fast by fuel? I'm gonna pull a plug today and veirfy if their talking crap or not. It seems to me if they tuned it up then the car would have fresh oil/plugs........besides the 2nd day after I got the car I opened the Air Filter just to see what the filter itself looked like, and on the screen that protects the MAF was a bunch of old dirty material from the filter element, it was all stuck to the screen!

Mike97gt · Aug 9, 2006

BurningRubber said:
One thing that wasnt mentioned...

You said you have Flowmasters, but do you have a catless crossover (midpipe) pipe?

Running one of those can creat a gas smell due to no cats cleaning the exhaust up.

As far as the oil, I havnt seen a car with oil that does not have a scent of gas in it. Not neccecerily a strong one, but one none the less.

Definatly not disagreeing with svttech, but I thought I would throw out the offroad midpipe suggestion out there.

When the oil becomes diluted it has a very stong scent of fuel and sometimes you can see and feel the difference.. You have to see it yourself and you will know what I mean.

Trail of Dead said:
So, now the dealership we bought the car from is trying to say they did a 21-point tune-up/inspection on this Mustang. If they did, what would make the oil become contaminated so fast by fuel? I'm gonna pull a plug today and veirfy if their talking crap or not. It seems to me if they tuned it up then the car would have fresh oil/plugs........besides the 2nd day after I got the car I opened the Air Filter just to see what the filter itself looked like, and on the screen that protects the MAF was a bunch of old dirty material from the filter element, it was all stuck to the screen!

Did the car run like this when you bought it? if not when did it start doing it? In most states you are covered for 30 days on somthing that will make it fail inspection.. I would say this qualifies.

Trail of Dead · Aug 9, 2006

Svttech, I just pulled the first plug......it was a brand new autolite plat., so, they apparently changed the plugs, but the oil is still contaminated, and like I said before the air filter is filthy. But, upon closer inspection when I went to put the plug back in (torqued 7-15 ft/lbs.) I noticed the white and green wires connecting to the COP were exposed! So, I whipped out my handy dandy elec. tape and covered them back up and whipped it around the block......seems to be better than before, but I'm sure the oil being contaminated is still making it a little sluggish. Question, would you recommend "Seafoam"? I noticed some serious carbon buildup on the top of the piston when I was looking at it TDC. Also, now that it seems since I reinsulated the two COP wires, is this thing safe to drive until the 15th, when I can get some oil/air filter for it?

Trail of Dead · Aug 9, 2006

Also, we don't have inspections here......Georgia. It didn't run this way, still had a tiny miss to it but it ran better. Now since I took it for a spin it seems to have regained some pep. The oil filter looks like it hasn't been changed in forever, same with the air filter.....I wonder why they would change the plugs, leave the leads exposed and not change anything else.....I wonder what they consider a 21-point tune-up???

Trail of Dead · Aug 10, 2006

Well I guess the dealer has receipts showing $600 on a tune-up they had done to it. I am completely lost on this thing.....one of the fighter pilots that works with my wife says if they didn't replace the PCV then that could cause similar issues.....it doesn't appear to be new. Also could a dirty fuel filter cause this hesitation? My cousin says his '98 Cobra does the same thing....is this just a normal thing? It seems to me that when you step on the gas the 4.6 should respond! Not hesitate then respond, at this point my cousin's '94 Probe GT would stomp this thing! HELP!!!!

GodAmGT00 · Aug 10, 2006

I was reading this a moment ago, and thought of something... Do you know that your injectors are performing correctly??

I had an issue on a car my parents owned.. They had 2 injectors of 6 go bad slowly.. One of them, the pintle was sticking open, so it was dumping serious amounts of fuel into the engine when power was applied to them.. I talked to a friend, and he mentioned that if there's excessive dirt that collects in the injector, it can cause them to stick.. I don't know how true that is, but it sort of made sense..

If after all of the plugs/ignition/fuel filter things are checked, and all found not to be the case, you may want to start checking other fuel system components..

Also, when you saw excessive carbon deposits on the piston tops, this is fairly normal when you're running as rich as it sounds like...

Just my $.02.. HTH

JT

Trail of Dead · Aug 10, 2006

GodAmGT00 said:
I was reading this a moment ago, and thought of something... Do you know that your injectors are performing correctly??

I had an issue on a car my parents owned.. They had 2 injectors of 6 go bad slowly.. One of them, the pintle was sticking open, so it was dumping serious amounts of fuel into the engine when power was applied to them.. I talked to a friend, and he mentioned that if there's excessive dirt that collects in the injector, it can cause them to stick.. I don't know how true that is, but it sort of made sense..

If after all of the plugs/ignition/fuel filter things are checked, and all found not to be the case, you may want to start checking other fuel system components..

Also, when you saw excessive carbon deposits on the piston tops, this is fairly normal when you're running as rich as it sounds like...

Just my $.02.. HTH

JT

Well, so far, I've been told there was a full tune-up done to the 4.6. As far as a dirty injector goes, would that STP Injector cleaner do the trick? I mean since they replaced the plugs, and the coils, boots...I still have to do a oil change, PCV, and fuel filter, and run some injector cleaner.....do you think the problem might lie in the remaining areas? I feel like I'm . This thing should have some flipping torque, but like I said my cousins old '94 Probe GT sucked you in your seat harder than this thing is. His felt like it literally pulled G Forces! I would just naturally expect more out of a 4.6 with flowmasters....am I wrong?

GodAmGT00 · Aug 10, 2006

The problem w/ using some of the Injector/Fuel System cleaner is it usually takes a tank or 2 to really do the job... They do work though... It'd be a good idea to replace the fuel filter just for sh-ts and giggles...

I just don't see how a PCV would cause Oil contamination (fuel). Reasonably, the only way you could get massive oil contamination would be excessive fuel dumping, or severe misfires...

JT

Mike97gt · Aug 10, 2006

Trail of Dead said:
Svttech, I just pulled the first plug......it was a brand new autolite plat., so, they apparently changed the plugs, but the oil is still contaminated, and like I said before the air filter is filthy. But, upon closer inspection when I went to put the plug back in (torqued 7-15 ft/lbs.) I noticed the white and green wires connecting to the COP were exposed! So, I whipped out my handy dandy elec. tape and covered them back up and whipped it around the block......seems to be better than before, but I'm sure the oil being contaminated is still making it a little sluggish. Question, would you recommend "Seafoam"? I noticed some serious carbon buildup on the top of the piston when I was looking at it TDC. Also, now that it seems since I reinsulated the two COP wires, is this thing safe to drive until the 15th, when I can get some oil/air filter for it?

the problem with driving it with the contaminated oil is that you can refoul the plugs.. the fuel fumes from the oil being sucked into the PCV richens the mixture to the point that it will misfire and foul.

GodAmGT00 said:
I was reading this a moment ago, and thought of something... Do you know that your injectors are performing correctly??

I had an issue on a car my parents owned.. They had 2 injectors of 6 go bad slowly.. One of them, the pintle was sticking open, so it was dumping serious amounts of fuel into the engine when power was applied to them.. I talked to a friend, and he mentioned that if there's excessive dirt that collects in the injector, it can cause them to stick.. I don't know how true that is, but it sort of made sense..

If after all of the plugs/ignition/fuel filter things are checked, and all found not to be the case, you may want to start checking other fuel system components..

Also, when you saw excessive carbon deposits on the piston tops, this is fairly normal when you're running as rich as it sounds like...

Just my $.02.. HTH

JT

this a also good advice.. It's not as common but I have seen it a few times where a injector will stick partial open and cause problems like this.

another possibility is the drivers in the PCM.

Trail of Dead · Aug 10, 2006

Well, I just got a new Fram "Extra Guard" Air Filter, some Slick 50 (for high mileage Vehicles), a 5qt jug of Valvoline Max life 10w30, a Fram PCV valve, a Fram Fuel Filter, and a bottle of STP Fuel Injector Cleaner. Saturday @ 8am we have an appointment (that the dealer made for us) to get this thing looked at, and get whatever is wrong with it fixed at the dealers expense. I have to take it there, and I'm wondering aside from getting them to install all the new parts I bought for it is there anything I should make sure they do? Example, cylinder leakdown test, PCM drivers, test injectors....anything I'm missing (you know trade secrets of some sort)? Suggestions? Thank you all who have gave me advice and/or $0.02. You ALL rock!

Mike97gt · Aug 11, 2006

Trail of Dead said:
Well, I just got a new Fram "Extra Guard" Air Filter, some Slick 50 (for high mileage Vehicles), a 5qt jug of Valvoline Max life 10w30, a Fram PCV valve, a Fram Fuel Filter, and a bottle of STP Fuel Injector Cleaner. Saturday @ 8am we have an appointment (that the dealer made for us) to get this thing looked at, and get whatever is wrong with it fixed at the dealers expense. I have to take it there, and I'm wondering aside from getting them to install all the new parts I bought for it is there anything I should make sure they do? Example, cylinder leakdown test, PCM drivers, test injectors....anything I'm missing (you know trade secrets of some sort)? Suggestions? Thank you all who have gave me advice and/or $0.02. You ALL rock!

Yeah you can say I know some of the trade secrets.

Well they can do a injector flow test to see if any injector is leaking, if it's a severe leak it will not even activate the test because it needs to maintain fuel presure to do it.

the power balance test will pinpoint what cylinders are going out, they can also do a COP stress test ( coil on plug) if it passes the injector tests and therefore most likely ign related. they can also do relative compression it's a fairly accurate non invasive test on the IDS/WDS that can point toward a mechanical fault.

See what ends up screwing with some techs when they have a severe misfire like this is that the rings get "washed down" this will cause a compression lost and cause it to still misfire even after you correct the cause of the original misfire. To fix this you either let it run with the injector unplugged on that cylinder. or you can put a tiny tiny amount of oil in the plug hole to reseal that cylinder.

well anyways let us know what happens when you bring it in. I hope you get a good tech and not a hack..

Trail of Dead · Aug 12, 2006

Well, I just got the Mustang back, when my wife and I went in to get the keys the guy looked at me and said "It's a mystery". I thought "Oh, great...another appointment will have to be made and require more waiting around". I took the keys and went outside, turned the key, dropped it in first and left. Finally got onto the highway and got on it a little bit.........$#^%&%#!!!!!! Where's the misfire/hesitation? The thing RAN! No misfire, or stutter of any sort..5th gear actually became useful (it used to just stutter non-stop in fifth). The parts we bought for it are: Oil Filter/Oil (which he didn't change), Air Filter (I installed), PCV Valve, Fuel Filter......The things the garage installed: New coil (tested all of 'em), New plugs. My wife thinks that after they couldn't find out what was wrong they just installed the parts we bought and then parked it. Thinking it was still messed up, the guy told me "It's a mystery". So, I've got an appointment to get the oil changed, and I think the parts we bought for it solved the mystery. It only needed a PROPER tune-up, however I am going to drive it again tonight and see if it decides to happen again.

Trail of Dead · Aug 12, 2006

Well, I was wrong.......I took it out again after it sat for a few hours (went to the swamp nearby and looked for gators) and sure enough the stutter was still there . So, when I got it back home I put some STP Injector cleaner in it.....then the "Service Engine Soon" light came on. Could the STP have caused this warning? We're going to take it to the Ford garage monday and have them service it..I hope to God that they fix it!!!!!! At this point I'm Pi$$ed!!. Things never seem to work out as planned EVER. I guess I've just got to play it by ear and just hope for the best. I wonder why it ran so good when I picked it up? Then after sitting return to it's P.O.S self, maybe computer related?

Mike97gt · Aug 12, 2006

that dealer sucks.. they can't fix a damm simple misfire..

any tech that gets a dead miss like your and does not change the oil needs to be removed from the dealer and brought back to the gas station he belongs in...

You know what most likely happend... Exactly what I said would happen.. the fuel vapors from the contaminated oil richened the mixture and fouled the plugs plus your lucky you have not spun a bearing yet from the diluted oil

Tell them if they want the car fixed pay for me to fly down there and stay in a hotel, pay me 500 bucks for my time ( even if it takes me a half hour to fix) tell them to have some basic hand tool and a IDS/WDS ready thats all I need.

firs tthing they need to do now is change the oil out, pull all the plugs drop a tiny bit of oil down the cylinders that are misfiring.. then run it with cleaned plugs and fresh oil.. If the skip comes back in the same cylinder they replaced the coil in then you check the PCM.. I have seen the drivers in the PCM go bad and cause issues like this.

If this is a ford dealer they really must have a shortage of decent ford techs down your way..

Trail of Dead · Aug 12, 2006

I wish I could have you fix it, this guy didn't change my oil cause he said that the oil LOOKED fine, and he said he wouldn't use the Slick 50 that I bought cause he said it caused a problem in one of HIS cars!!! Can you believe this butthole surfer? It (thankfully) wasn't a Ford Garage, it was a mom&pop shop that the dealer who sold me the car uses (for future reference the Garages name is "Ray Norton Tire & Service"). This is the second time (down here in Georgia) that I've had a shop tell me they don't know what is wrong with one of my vehicles. The first time was my 1998 Chevy Blazer, on the drivers side rear wheel it makes a "clank,clank,clank" sound when you are going from 15MPH and below, and the noise gets louder when you go around turns. When you apply the brakes it stops. The noise comes from the outside somewhere around the caliper/rotor/pad area, yet the garage I took it to tore my whole rearend apart and then put it back together and said "We couldn't find anything wrong with it and don't know why it's making that noise." well, it still makes the noise and it sounds to me like a warped rotor or a pad with one of those retainers broken or loose. Anyways, monday the Mustang is going to an actual Ford Dealer Garage (Langdale Ford) and I don't want it back until the SOB runs 100%.....and I am NOT paying a nickel for any of this, we just got this car almost two weeks ago and after interest we will end up paying $15,000 for it PLUS the dealer has our old car (2002 Dodge Intrepid) that he gave us $3,000 for and is asking $6,000. So I feel that he is making a killing and the least he could do is bend over backwards and make it right with us! This is our third car from him! Honestly if I had the money I would pay for a roundtrip ticket for you and hotel+rental car, money for the job, tools, and some food money to come down and square this thing away. I hope that this Ford Garage has some good techs! Thanks for putting up with my so far dead end thread

Mike97gt · Aug 12, 2006

Ohh it's a independant shop.. that explains it.

I am sure they will get it taken care of for you at the ford dealer. Sadly it's getting to the point that the independants are having a hard time diaging these cars because of the complex electronics built into them. There are some excellent mechanics that work in independants but even they don't have the resources and the tools we have at the dealer.

It's going to get worse in a few years when more hybrids hit the roads. Hell I bet some poor independant mechanic is going to kill himself tring to bleed the brakes on a escape hybrid.. Hell 2,000 PSI of brake fluid to the eye might just be lethal.

Even for the small shops that can afford the sometimes 10-20k in diag equipment then they have to go out and get qualified techs there just is not enough good techs out there. The days of the uneducated grease monkey fixing everything is over, sure those guys can handle brakes and oil changes but they can't diag these modern cars. Your not going to get a good tech to work for the 10-20 per hour wages that most small shops will pay.

I did a litle trade school myself then learned the rest by trail and error and ford technical training, but I think it's getting to the point where the shops are going to have to pay more for techs with 2-4 years of technical college background.

Trail of Dead · Aug 14, 2006

Well now I have to take the car back to the independant shop tomorrow because the guy who sold it to us thinks that since the check engine light came on that the garage will now be able to find the problem. RRRRRR! This is taking so flippin' long to fix, I've seen complete engines get rebuilt faster! It sucks, I look in my driveway and there sits this Mustang GT that I can't drive. I know I shouldn't drive it anyways, but I HAVE to take it to Advance Auto today and have them hook up to my PCM and tell me what the code is so I know what the problem is. By the way, what is a "spun" bearing?

d98gt · Aug 14, 2006

Something that you definitly don't want!

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