Fox Na 306 E7te Heads 368hp/363tq

cleanLX · Oct 27, 2015

I do have a GoPro, once I get my Mark Williams driveshaft (current FoMoCo is warped), 4.56's installed (soon) and get new rubber (budget pending) for my strip wheels I'll oblige.
Until then I'll be walking it out of the hole on dr's.
When I was running the totally stock motor, 5500-6000 was part of the drill in my quest for 12's.

R block, scat super light crank and rods, srs pistons (all received attention by the builder)... rings and bearings I do not recall, tolerances, no idea, engine builder likely has record tho. I remember a fair bit of talk about ring package and possibly needing to run a pump. So far so good. Windage tray, canton pan with oil control... builder says it'll be good for 7500 under load, 8000 free rev/missed shifts will be just fine. Currently have limiter set at 7500, but should be shifting below that.

A5literMan · Oct 28, 2015

Noobz347 · Oct 28, 2015

cleanLX said:
She once met me on the construction site at quitting time... high heels and a dress... you can imagine the scene that created. .

-5 interwebz. Someone else will splain.

mikestang63 · Oct 28, 2015

cleanLX said:
I do have a GoPro, once I get my Mark Williams driveshaft (current FoMoCo is warped), 4.56's installed (soon) and get new rubber (budget pending) for my strip wheels I'll oblige.
Until then I'll be walking it out of the hole on dr's.
When I was running the totally stock motor, 5500-6000 was part of the drill in my quest for 12's.

R block, scat super light crank and rods, srs pistons (all received attention by the builder)... rings and bearings I do not recall, tolerances, no idea, engine builder likely has record tho. I remember a fair bit of talk about ring package and possibly needing to run a pump. So far so good. Windage tray, canton pan with oil control... builder says it'll be good for 7500 under load, 8000 free rev/missed shifts will be just fine. Currently have limiter set at 7500, but should be shifting below that.

I got wood looking at that

cleanLX · Nov 2, 2015

thanks all.

Dave2000GT · Nov 4, 2015

Nice build, I'm sure the port work is awesome to let the E7s breath like that. The real magic here is running the solid cam, setup properly it adds well over 1000 RPM of good power up top. Even on an otherwise stock motor.

cleanLX · Nov 6, 2015

Just to clarify a bit...
A solid roller cam does not add rpm, it adds ramp rate which in turn allows additional inlet flow.
If the remainder of the combo is up to the task (rotating assembly, valvetrain, flow characteristics of the inlet, intake, heads, gearing) the rpm can be used however when you start moving the power band up, the bottom end suffers (especially in my case, with tiny 140cc heads).
To say a solid roller would add 1000rpm range to a stock motor is misleading. Since a stock 5.0 requires a shift point handy 5400rpm to run hardest, throwing in a solid roller is not going to magically require the car be shifted at 6400. I'm sure one could be designed to do just that, but i bet it would not be optimized. If you recognize that having a 125cc head and 140cfm intake make power up through 6000 you are going to be giving up drivability, idle and cruise rpm characteristics of the stock motor. Again, having a cam that will rev there is one thing, but taking advantage and making power there is something else. Even then, from what I have seen in NMRA super stock, these guys are shifting at around 5600rpm... 125cc head/140cfm intake, and those motors are no where near what most of us would consider "street motors".
So, solid roller does not add rpm, it can allow you to move the rpm up if the rest of the combo will support it, but in my case, and with a stock motor, doing so will have consequences.

Dave2000GT · Nov 6, 2015

cleanLX said:
Just to clarify a bit...
A solid roller cam does not add rpm, it adds ramp rate which in turn allows additional inlet flow.
If the remainder of the combo is up to the task (rotating assembly, valvetrain, flow characteristics of the inlet, intake, heads, gearing) the rpm can be used however when you start moving the power band up, the bottom end suffers (especially in my case, with tiny 140cc heads).
To say a solid roller would add 1000rpm range to a stock motor is misleading. Since a stock 5.0 requires a shift point handy 5400rpm to run hardest, throwing in a solid roller is not going to magically require the car be shifted at 6400. I'm sure one could be designed to do just that, but i bet it would not be optimized. If you recognize that having a 125cc head and 140cfm intake make power up through 6000 you are going to be giving up drivability, idle and cruise rpm characteristics of the stock motor. Again, having a cam that will rev there is one thing, but taking advantage and making power there is something else. Even then, from what I have seen in NMRA super stock, these guys are shifting at around 5600rpm... 125cc head/140cfm intake, and those motors are no where near what most of us would consider "street motors".
So, solid roller does not add rpm, it can allow you to move the rpm up if the rest of the combo will support it, but in my case, and with a stock motor, doing so will have consequences.

I think you make alot of good points and are probably alot more knowledgable on motors than me, but I would still stand by the statement that solid cams, even with similar lift #'s add alot to most motors, with no other changes other than compatible valvetrain. Not sure of the rules, but if NMRA super stock guys are shifting at 5600 it's because the rules limit them to hydraulic cams. The same set of rules, if someone cheated and ran solid lifters all else being equal they would win (and get caught etc..). It has higher rpm capability and power gains throughout most (or all) of the range. Not just from flow, ramp rates etc. but from better valve train stability throughout RPM and lack of pump/bleed down found in stock/hydraulic lifters.

hoopty5.0 · Nov 6, 2015

Dave2000GT said:
I think you make alot of good points and are probably alot more knowledgable on motors than me, but I would still stand by the statement that solid cams, even with similar lift #'s add alot to most motors, with no other changes other than compatible valvetrain. Not sure of the rules, but if NMRA super stock guys are shifting at 5600 it's because the rules limit them to hydraulic cams. The same set of rules, if someone cheated and ran solid lifters all else being equal they would win (and get caught etc..). It has higher rpm capability and power gains throughout most (or all) of the range. Not just from flow, ramp rates etc. but from better valve train stability throughout RPM and lack of pump/bleed down found in stock/hydraulic lifters.

This statement completely ignores the fact that the cam is built to the flow characteristics of the heads. If the heads max flow is around 5600, there is no benefit to spinning the motor up another 1k rpm. If your theory held true, we'd all be sticking 3/4 race cams in, turning 9k rpm and making 500 hp with stock heads.

cleanLX · Nov 6, 2015

Dave,
I really don't know much about "motors", but understand the principals behind what makes mine work, and how it relates to a stock motor.
By the way, I used the wrong class of racing in my comparison, and meant to type NHRA stock, not NMRA super stock, sorry for the confusion.
They run hydro lifters, that, are not really hydro, and they run stock lift "square" cams.
Fact is a 125cc head and 140cfm intake will only do so much when running on top of a 289-311cu.in.
To get the performance they do out of them they idle over 2000rpms and are all done by about 5200 giving them the 5600 shift point. At least that is the case for the one I guy I know who was willing to discuss things. And, seeing how he was setting records at the time I would say he knew what was up in the class.
There are plenty of hydro lifters that will spin to the rpms I am at, but none of them will support the ramp rates my solid cam has. I hope you are following what i am saying. The solid lifter has not allowed me to spin the engine higher, the solid roller has allowed me to run a poo tonne of ramp rate, which gets the valves open quicker, and holds them open longer than a hydro would allow. Hydro or solid, my car is going to make power right where it does... solid just lets it make more power because the valves are opened quicker, and held near max lift longer than what the ramp rates a hydro would support.
Now certainly, I could spin this thing to 8200rpm with a cam swap, but, with the little 140cc ports I'd be looking at an idle up handy 2000rpm, cruise rpm over 3500 and a hollow power band until close to 6000rpm. I know this because for a bit I considered going that route. Again, compromises... all out performance vs street-ability.
FYI a 225cc port could likely have decent idle and 8200rpm... but for the little head (my 140cc) to breath up there the valve events simply will not allow the inlet to work at lower rpm... getting well outside my knowledge comfort zone, so I'll stop.

Look at the NHRA example again.
When my car had the stock motor, with aftermarket exhaust and air meter...
it needed shifted at 5600rpms and ran 12.9's.
NHRA stock, stock motor with aftermarket exhaust and air meter (although most are speed density) and a "square" stock lift cam...
they are shifting at 5600rpm and running in the 11's.
Now there is more to it than just the cam, but you can see their "hydro, cough, solid" lifters did not make them rev higher, just make a tonne more power at the same rpm.

Now, for a high rev application yes, a solid is the way to go for all the reasons we all know, but, to have a high rev setup the foundation first needs to be there. Simply tossing a solid roller into an existing setup is not going to make it want to rev higher... unless some performance parameters are increased in the design, and/or drivability concerns moved further to the back seat. Can it rev higher? sure, but it likely isn't making any worthy power in doing so... that is provided the original hydro setup was optimized.

Hope that makes sense.

Dave2000GT · Nov 9, 2015

hoopty5.0 said:
This statement completely ignores the fact that the cam is built to the flow characteristics of the heads.

Indeed it does ! I'm aware of that, and that's one of the points here - solid cams make better power. I just think it's an often overlooked fact. People will come on here and say well I've got several K in nice aluminum heads, intake, and a cam with similar lift #'s but I can barely crack 300hp and you are seeing over 350hp.. so what gives?? And a BIG piece of that difference is the added valve stability and rev capacity of running a solid cam.

cleanLX said:
Now, for a high rev application yes, a solid is the way to go for all the reasons we all know, but, to have a high rev setup the foundation first needs to be there. Simply tossing a solid roller into an existing setup is not going to make it want to rev higher... unless some performance parameters are increased in the design, and/or drivability concerns moved further to the back seat. Can it rev higher? sure, but it likely isn't making any worthy power in doing so... that is provided the original hydro setup was optimized.

I just don't agree with this part. Let's say you don't change a thing but put in a solid cam and since you are doing the work already you pick one with ramps that take advantage of the fact it is solid like you said.. does it rev higher and make better power all round? Yes. Now let's say you are on a hella cheap budget and leave your stock 5.0 HO hydro cam in there and throw in solid lifters, set the lash just right (not that's it's recommended, but has been done). Does it rev higher and make better power ? STILL YES - even though you haven't even changed cams. Now as to actual numbers I don't know, but it adds ALOT more than 0 rpm of usable power up top.

cleanLX · Nov 9, 2015

Dave2000GT said:
Let's say you don't change a thing but put in a solid cam and since you are doing the work already you pick one with ramps that take advantage of the fact it is solid like you said.

Right. However, in picking ramp rates that take advantage we are changing the performance criteria of the setup.
My point is, in my case, which is how this all started, a hydro setup will spin past 7000rpm, so a solid did nothing for me for extending the operating rpm window... which is what I was getting at when I first clarified.
We are on the same page, and when I got into this back and forth with you, it most certainly was not to create an internet banter session, or discredit you in any way, rather it was to simply set it straight for less experienced/knowledgeable folks.

Dave2000GT said:
Now let's say you are on a hella cheap budget and leave your stock 5.0 HO hydro cam in there and throw in solid lifters, set the lash just right (not that's it's recommended, but has been done). Does it rev higher and make better power ?

Make more power yes.
Capable of reving higher, yes.
Making more power at the higher revs, possibly, but from what I have seen, not enough to alter shift points, at least not more than a 100-200 hundred rpm... not on a stock motor. At this point I'm guessing, but with the restricted inlet they just cannot breath well enough to make enough power at those higher rpms... at least not enough to move the shift points... Again, I'm basing this off NHRA stock 5.0 mustang racers (Ed Hohenberg) experience... and they were doing exactly what we are talking about.

Now take a 300cfm intake paired with 300cfm heads (with all the supporting equipment) and look at hydro vs solid and I would wadger the solid could make usable power at rpms beyond the range of the hydro.

cleanLX · Feb 17, 2016

ok, so, I wish I could go back and delete the solid cam banter in the last few posts, but, there is the internet for you. There was a thread recently about have you ever gone back and looked at things you posted and wished you hadn't? Well, I wish I'd just agreed a solid cam allows more rev's and left it alone without all the crap I felt I needed to add at the time.

Moving on.
4.56's and new driveshaft going in this weekend.
New MT ET Fronts and MT ET Street R bias rears... new Weld Draglites.
Hitting the track March 18th, pretty excited, even if it is hitting near 90*F already this year...
D/A at the track right now is 3408', and this is the time of day I'll be running... makes me sick, but oh well.

Noobz347 · Feb 17, 2016

Just how fast are you planning to spin this thing?

cleanLX · Feb 18, 2016

I'm going to start with the shift light set at 6800 and work up/down from there.

A5literMan · Feb 18, 2016

cleanLX said:
ok, so, I wish I could go back and delete the solid cam banter in the last few posts, but, there is the internet for you. There was a thread recently about have you ever gone back and looked at things you posted and wished you hadn't? Well, I wish I'd just agreed a solid cam allows more rev's and left it alone without all the crap I felt I needed to add at the time.

Moving on.
4.56's and new driveshaft going in this weekend.
New MT ET Fronts and MT ET Street R bias rears... new Weld Draglites.
Hitting the track March 18th, pretty excited, even if it is hitting near 90*F already this year...
D/A at the track right now is 3408', and this is the time of day I'll be running... makes me sick, but oh well.

That's some bad air! The one cool thing is you can plug in your numbers,that you do run, into the online calculators. Doesn't give you complete satisfaction but at least you can get corrected numbers. I'm excited to see what it does. Let's us know how it all goes. I'm also interested in how those tires perform for you. Good luck!

CarMichael Angelo · Feb 18, 2016

cleanLX said:
ok, so, I wish I could go back and delete the solid cam banter in the last few posts, but, there is the internet for you. There was a thread recently about have you ever gone back and looked at things you posted and wished you hadn't? Well, I wish I'd just agreed a solid cam allows more rev's and left it alone without all the crap I felt I needed to add at the time.

Moving on.
4.56's and new driveshaft going in this weekend.
New MT ET Fronts and MT ET Street R bias rears... new Weld Draglites.
Hitting the track March 18th, pretty excited, even if it is hitting near 90*F already this year...
D/A at the track right now is 3408', and this is the time of day I'll be running... makes me sick, but oh well.

Do you really want all of the solid cam banter deleted?

FoxMustangLvr · Feb 18, 2016

madmike1157 said:
Do you really want all of the solid cam banter deleted?

Why would you delete it? No posting rules were broken.

@cleanLX
I vote no on the deleting. It didn't get dirty or angry, it was a good intellectual debate which is hard to find without resorting to childish antics these days. Those posts are actually very informative and I enjoyed the read about ramp rates, drivability, and flow characteristics.

Congrats on the new parts, interested in seeing what the car will run in March. Please remind us what the car is currently running before the switch.

CarMichael Angelo · Feb 18, 2016

FoxMustangLvr said:
Why would you delete it? No posting rules were broken..

Just addressing his comment,.. No other reason.

cleanLX · Feb 18, 2016

madmike1157 said:
Do you really want all of the solid cam banter deleted?

I do, but not fair to Dave2000, or others who were interested or amused... leave it be, learning experience for me to just let some things go.
Thanks for the offer Mike.

A5literman, yes, I agree, corrected numbers are a gauge, but are just that, timeslip will still read what it does.

Fox~lvr, it ran 12.75 @ 110.7 with a 1.98 60'... massive bog out of the hole, and short shifting... Just was not happy with the drag radials or rpm in the traps. The ET is jacked due to really poor driving, and the mph is jacked due to short shifting. It really would not be fair to consider that an honest representation of what the car was capable of setup as it was. Additionally, it had some electrical issues at the time, which have since been resolved.
My point, comparing what it does in March will be moot. Bad driving, re-tuned... gears and tires will be just part of the equation... well, that's assuming I drive it well this time I guess. I suppose I may come back and say I still really suck at driving but the car picked up anyways .
Hopefully I get some clean passes in.

Fox Na 306 E7te Heads 368hp/363tq

cleanLX

A5literMan

At least it is lumpy...

Noobz347

Stangnet Facilities Maint Tech... Er... Janitor

mikestang63

cleanLX

Dave2000GT

Active Member

cleanLX

Dave2000GT

Active Member

hoopty5.0

mechanicus terribilis

cleanLX

Dave2000GT

Active Member

cleanLX

cleanLX

Noobz347

Stangnet Facilities Maint Tech... Er... Janitor

cleanLX

A5literMan

At least it is lumpy...

CarMichael Angelo

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

FoxMustangLvr

I love my Pimp

CarMichael Angelo

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

cleanLX

Fox Na 306 E7te Heads 368hp/363tq

At least it is lumpy...

Stangnet Facilities Maint Tech... Er... Janitor

Active Member

Active Member

mechanicus terribilis

Active Member

Stangnet Facilities Maint Tech... Er... Janitor

At least it is lumpy...

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

I love my Pimp

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

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