NA 418, 347, 5.0, & Blown 5.0 Dyno Pull Compare-O

[final5-0]

Hello 94-95 :SNSign: Friends

I got a different computer with XP and most of my analyzing and editing tools
were for 98se

I got Photo Shop Elements and wanted to test it out a bit

Just recently ... Keith and Mike posted up their dyno pulls

As most of you know ... They each have Windsor Strokers

If a chart posted on these forums is displayed in such a fashion that I can arrive
at numerical values where accuracy can be held to no more than a 1% to 2%
error on HP/TQ, I sometimes go to the work of putting that data in a file to take
a close look at what all is REALLY going on

As luck would have it ... I was unable to use Keith's chart
but
I was able to do something with Mike's chart

Big Cubic Inches are in a class all by themselves :Word:

I bet you are like me

You've considered not only a Stroked Windsor
but
A blown combo
or
Maybe like I've done ... An OEM block based NA h/c/i combo

After looking at Mike's 418 NA combo
I just had to see if it ... REALLY WAS ... as good as it first appeared

When looking at data such as this ... Perspective is ALWAYS important
so
I placed Mike's pull alongside a few others in the 400rwhp category

Now ... moving down a bit in power

I also included my humble little combo because ..........

Well ... after all ... this is MY THREAD
and
I have a desire to see what ... might have been better

Seriously though ... I've leaned more toward the options of two variations
of 5.0 OEM blocked based combos

1) 347 Stroker
2) KB Blower

Since my application is weekend street car only .......

These options appeal to me as I place more importance on a torque curve
that has more of a higher average value than a lot of combos you can find
that do better than mine when talking about peak values.

All of these combos are streetable and some are fairly conservative

btw ... I put the KB & S trim together cause we got so many new peeps
these days. Hopefully ... this can show how they differ in going about
making power.

They run about the same amount of boost and are similar
so
The comparison is not all that unfair IMHO

The data speaks for itself

but

Note: Some were done with a STD Calibration which usually yield higher
values as opposed to those with SAE

As always

Feel free to offer thoughts, questions, differing opinions or point out
something I could have missed

Grady

 

[BlackVert]

good info!

 

[milewsky80]

The S-trim vs the KB really surprised me. It seems most of the info I've seen has people saying the centri blowers blow the twin screws away at higher RPM. Higher boost levels might show this but at these average levels it's pretty damn even.

 

[final5-0]

The S-trim vs the KB really surprised me. It seems most of the info I've seen has people saying the centri blowers blow the twin screws away at higher RPM. Higher boost levels might show this but at these average levels it's pretty damn even.

Yes ... sometimes these comparisons can supprise you

S-trim is the win when you focus on the higher end of the power curve
but
At 4K the KB has close to 20#'s on the S-trim

and

As you go down from there it becomes substantially greater :Word:

I mean you gotta get to OVER 5K before the centri gains on the screw

IMHO ... Low & Mid range torque for a street car is a good thing

I really did like these two blown examples

It give you a chance to see how much a small amount of boost can help a
typical h/c/i combo


Grady

 

[1slow95]

I win.
I do have another dyno sheet with SAE numbers. It's down 14hp and 9tq, which I thought was from the hot humid weather that day. It was over 90 that day, and upper 60's for my STD dyno. Plus the engine was cutting out over 5800 because of a messed up rev limiter. I had also changed from Autolite "R" plugs to standard plugs(which I did notice a slight loss of power from).

To fill in a couple ? in your chart, I have 1.6 Scorpion RR's and a SCT chip. I also have UD pulleys and CR is around 10.8:1. Smog and A/C are long gone.

Also, the S Trim HP and TQ don't cross at 5250.

 

[S351Saleen77]

Big cubes rule!! This is why I have been saying all along go big on the heads and cam you will still make more torque than a 302 anyday, looks like I was wrong I should have said way more than a 302 with a KB!

I lost most of my dyno sheets..........I think I do have a old one where I was making a little under 650rwhp ... If I find it maybe you could put that in also.

Grady, How do I go about posting it up if I don't have a scanner??

 

[final5-0]

I win.
I do have another dyno sheet with SAE numbers. It's down 14hp and 9tq, which I thought was from the hot humid weather that day. It was over 90 that day, and upper 60's for my STD dyno. Plus the engine was cutting out over 5800 because of a messed up rev limiter. I had also changed from Autolite "R" plugs to standard plugs(which I did notice a slight loss of power from).

To fill in a couple ? in your chart, I have 1.6 Scorpion RR's and a SCT chip. I also have UD pulleys and CR is around 10.8:1. Smog and A/C are long gone.

Also, the S Trim HP and TQ don't cross at 5250.

Thank you Sir for the info so I can update my files

I did not think you would mind if the rest of us celebrated with you
about how well things turned out for all your hard work

Again ... Nice results

I had not noticed the S-trim curves snafoo

The combo came from ... that other Stang site ... and IIRC, I found the info
like a couple years ago so I might not be able to look into what is up with
the curves crossing too early.

Grady

 

[final5-0]

Big cubes rule!! This is why I have been saying all along go big on the heads and cam you will still make more torque than a 302 anyday, looks like I was wrong I should have said way more than a 302 with a KB!

I lost most of my dyno sheets..........I think I do have a old one where I was making a little under 650rwhp ... If I find it maybe you could put that in also.

Grady, How do I go about posting it up if I don't have a scanner??

A very good Q about how to obtain dyno results

Everybody is familiar with how the dyno tech will ... PRINT ... the results
with a printer and give you the sheet of paper

HOWEVER

A great alternative way
is to call before you go to the dyno and ask them what options
are available so you can get the results in file form

Most likely they will tell you to bring a blank 3.5 floppy or cd

Also ... if you ask them
they can include values in numerical form like you see in the Stang
rags displaying rpm, torque, & hp in columns

If you got the chart ... I don't know any other way to get it in file
form other than scan it or take a picture

Maybe some of the members know another way

The thing about taking a picture is you usually get a bit of
distortion

If you take a close look at those charts where one used such a
method, you will find the pic is crooked or the edges of the pic
can sometimes be distorted

Since the pic does not sit ... SQUARE ... you can't always arrive
at a value that you can trust in those instances

Grady

 

[Pokageek]

Nevermind, I just read the whole thread ,lol ..seriously, Mikes is the utlimate example in my o. It says it all.

Thanks for posting tho. This shows u all HP aint equal. Just like looking at the dyno sticky. I saw a 347 on their with lots of peak hp but its all way high in the rpm band. That's great for track but not for me. I am trying to get closer to Mike's flat curve. Let's see what happens,. Edit] The KB is impressive. Wow that thing has some incredulous low end. Makes HUGE difference.

 

[S351Saleen77]

Here are a couple old dyno pulls I took pics of I hope they work!
I can't find recent dynos.

On the Mustang dyno all I did was spin the tires @ 3750rpm even with 2 of us sitting in the trunk! And they say that Mustang Dynos read low compared to Dynojets.....

On the Dyno Jet one I found from 4 yrs ago I was loosing fuel pressure around 5800rpm where the graph starts to move around so he let off early.
It reads much lower than the Mustang dyno.

The Dynojet read 60-70 hp and ft lbs low.....not sure why?? I could never get a full pull on the Mustang dyno, but the guy is a great DFI tuner and the dyno is great for loading the car down in real world driving so the mustang dyno was used for tuning the car. But then I had to go to a Dynojet to see if my A/F was off above 3750rpm.

This just goes to show what a little boost on a 408 can do! You should get the picture.
And this is with 1 5/8" shorty headers that are too small for the ports on the heads!!



Mustang dyno spinning the tires!!

Dynojet.....Fuel delivery problems @ 5800

 

[Killercanary]

I believe that is my cousin's KB combo. For what the car had when it made those numbers defintiely impressed me. He was seeing a MAX of 6lbs of boost at the time too. He's since switched to a flowzilla manifold and a ported GT40 lower so it'd be even more impressive now. The thing is a beast to drive, its still one of the only mustangs I have driven that scared me...

 

[final5-0]

I believe that is my cousin's KB combo. For what the car had when it made those numbers defintiely impressed me. He was seeing a MAX of 6lbs of boost at the time too. He's since switched to a flowzilla manifold and a ported GT40 lower so it'd be even more impressive now. The thing is a beast to drive, its still one of the only mustangs I have driven that scared me...

You are correct Mr. Paul

I've always been so impressed by what was done with that combo

I use it as kind of a bench mark when I wanna see if somebody has done something special

When it comes to putting up the pulls I find on the internet .......

I usually leave the name off unless the pull is from a combo that belongs to
our friendly little group of StangNet friends

I'd hate for somebody to get mad
about me posting up their chart

Grady

 

[final5-0]

This just goes to show what a little boost on a 408 can do! You should get the picture.
And this is with 1 5/8" shorty headers that are too small for the ports on the heads!!

Very Impressive Sir :Word:

Grady

 

[S351Saleen77]

Nevermind, I just read the whole thread ,lol ..seriously, Mikes is the utlimate example in my o. It says it all.

Thanks for posting tho. This shows u all HP aint equal. Just like looking at the dyno sticky. I saw a 347 on their with lots of peak hp but its all way high in the rpm band. That's great for track but not for me. I am trying to get closer to Mike's flat curve. Let's see what happens,. Edit] The KB is impressive. Wow that thing has some incredulous low end. Makes HUGE difference.

I know our cams are pretty close...my intake is way different which will change things, plus the S/C.......what I wanted to point out is how mine on the Dynojet graph torque flattens out and stays the same until 5600rpm. All the other charts most are dropping from 4000-5000rpm. I'm curious what yours does? This extra RPM with the torque coming on hard is incredible!!

The big cube N/A just shows what cubic inches can do.....and all the "5.0 based strokers make more HP per cubic inch over a 351 stroker" Well I think the dyno's say it all.........they just don't have the cubes to make the kind of power a 351 based stroker makes. Sure I have seen guys through a ton of boost on a 347 and make alot but.....a lot less stress using a 408 or 418 or 427 with low boost!!

 

[S351Saleen77]

Very Impressive Sir :Word:

Grady

Thanks

I know the 2 graphs are way different but I just wanted to show what happens when you throw 10-12lbs of boost on a big cube stroker.

 

[Stanger007]

On the Mustang dyno all I did was spin the tires @ 3750rpm even with 2 of us sitting in the trunk! And they say that Mustang Dynos read low compared to Dynojets.....

That's strange on the dynojet - do you remember what model it was? Some of the newer ones have load control like the MD and DynoDynamics.

Also your HP@50 and Weight are interesting on the chart - did you input the curb weight of your car (3400lb). The HP@50 is the "aero" factor that they also take into account.

MustangDyne provided us a list of HP@50 and standard weights of cars as a starting point. I didn't see any Cobra R or something that might be similar to yours but typical values for coupes are ~3550lb and ~13.0 HP@50.

Another thing interesting about dyno results is that how hard a car is strapped onto the dyno will affect the readings, people on the trunk etc. - the tire deflecting on the roller takes up some power.

Wes

 

[S351Saleen77]

That's strange on the dynojet - do you remember what model it was? Some of the newer ones have load control like the MD and DynoDynamics.

Also your HP@50 and Weight are interesting on the chart - did you input the curb weight of your car (3400lb). The HP@50 is the "aero" factor that they also take into account.

MustangDyne provided us a list of HP@50 and standard weights of cars as a starting point. I didn't see any Cobra R or something that might be similar to yours but typical values for coupes are ~3550lb and ~13.0 HP@50.

Another thing interesting about dyno results is that how hard a car is strapped onto the dyno will affect the readings, people on the trunk etc. - the tire deflecting on the roller takes up some power.

Wes

Wes,
I'm pretty sure it was a MD. What is the "Load control" you are talking about?
I think it might be what this has....he has a remote control and can "Load " the Dyno and any rpm which he uses for tuning.
So this is what I used this dyno for. He was the Accel DFI certified person in the Seattle area...so I used him to "tune" for driveability. It just sucked that I couldn't ever make a full pull at WOT. I do have it on a VHS video I should see about getting it transferred. The car is pulling good then the RPM just shoot's up when the tires break loose.

The Dynojet was just a "wide open" pull, no tuning. At this one they did not have the ability to "load" it for tuning.

The Mustang Dyno or MD has 2 rollers and your tire sits inbetween them. We strapped it down as hard as we could...let the air out..and me 200lbs and a 250+lb guy sat in the trunk.

The Dynojet has 1 big drum and I hook up no problem. I think for some reason the MD with 2 rollers don't grip the tire nearly as well.

The weight and HP@ 50 I have no idea where that came from....maybe he asked me what it weighed.... I know mine weighs less than 3550lbs.

 

[Stanger007]

You hit the nail on the head, by controlling load I can hold a specific RPM to tune specific a part of the curve (not just WOT). This is very useful for street cars, for doing accurate quartermile runs, for seeing how the tune will react on the road, simulating uphill/downhill driving etc.

The jist of the older dynojets is that they have a weighted drum that you accelerate... if your car weighs more than the drum then you will get higher #s. Conversely, having more weight than actual or too high of a "HP@50" value will load the car down more.

The strapping procedure on the dyno also plays into the #s. MD told me to strap to the roller connected to the PAU to get around belt stretching on the second roller (evidently kevlar belts can stretch).

That's why you always hear people say you can't race dynos yada yada, lotta variables but they really shine for doing rough comparisons such as these and moreso comparisons against the same car.

I'll have to work up some tests when I get spare time on show how much different dyno settings (weather, weight, aero, strapping) can skew the #s, would be a nice little comparison. I am interested in a full set of results myself.

Wes

Wes,
I'm pretty sure it was a MD. What is the "Load control" you are talking about?
I think it might be what this has....he has a remote control and can "Load " the Dyno and any rpm which he uses for tuning.
So this is what I used this dyno for. He was the Accel DFI certified person in the Seattle area...so I used him to "tune" for driveability. It just sucked that I couldn't ever make a full pull at WOT. I do have it on a VHS video I should see about getting it transferred. The car is pulling good then the RPM just shoot's up when the tires break loose.

The Dynojet was just a "wide open" pull, no tuning. At this one they did not have the ability to "load" it for tuning.

The Mustang Dyno or MD has 2 rollers and your tire sits inbetween them. We strapped it down as hard as we could...let the air out..and me 200lbs and a 250+lb guy sat in the trunk.

The Dynojet has 1 big drum and I hook up no problem. I think for some reason the MD with 2 rollers don't grip the tire nearly as well.

The weight and HP@ 50 I have no idea where that came from....maybe he asked me what it weighed.... I know mine weighs less than 3550lbs.

 

[final5-0]

That's why you always hear people say you can't race dynos yada yada, lotta variables but they really shine for doing rough comparisons such as these and moreso comparisons against the same car.

I'll have to work up some tests when I get spare time on show how much different dyno settings (weather, weight, aero, strapping) can skew the #s, would be a nice little comparison. I am interested in a full set of results myself.

Wes

Yes Wes ... good point ... for sure

That is the thing about doing comparisons

DynoJet ... Mustang Dyno ... 1/4 mile ... whatever ........

You need some kind of way to make the comparison as fair as possible

Dyno or Strip ... not every result one might find can be ..........
just slapped along side another

I would say ... If one looks at enough results (read here ... a bunch)
and
They save the data for close analyzation

Trends can be seen

Grady

 

[S351Saleen77]

That's strange on the dynojet - do you remember what model it was? Some of the newer ones have load control like the MD and DynoDynamics.

Another thing interesting about dyno results is that how hard a car is strapped onto the dyno will affect the readings, people on the trunk etc. - the tire deflecting on the roller takes up some power.

Wes

I answered you wrong on the Dynojet I thought you asked about the MD. I have no idea what kind of Dynojet it was....it was 1 year old so a 2003 model.

That's why you always hear people say you can't race dynos yada yada, lotta variables but they really shine for doing rough comparisons such as these and moreso comparisons against the same car.

I'll have to work up some tests when I get spare time on show how much different dyno settings (weather, weight, aero, strapping) can skew the #s, would be a nice little comparison. I am interested in a full set of results myself.

Wes

Exactly....I have 2 totally different graphs but one the car was tuned for driving and it worked perfect...the other let me know the air/fuel was going bad at higher rpm.

I would be cool to find out how much they can be affected by strapping tighter,or wrong weight/ aero hp entered or someone in the trunk!!