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Need Some Help. Cam Question

  • Thread starter Thread starter 2/75TH RANGER
  • Start date Start date Dec 23, 2017

2/75TH RANGER

Member
Oct 6, 2013
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Kyle Texas
Dec 23, 2017
#1
  • Dec 23, 2017
  • #1
I have a 91 5.0 Block and am using a TFS Stage 1 Cam. When I used my degree wheel my ICL was 112.
The cam specs do not show ICL only Lobe Sep which is also 112.

If I am understanding this right would that mean that the cam has no advance in it when installed dot to dot ?

The reason for the question :

The car lacked bottom end power and had a lifter knocking noise. Off came the intake to remove the Ford Rollers and install Cranes. Then I had one that was not sending oil to the rocker. I removed it and found that they did not drill the hole in the inner piston of the lifter. After sending those back and getting a set of Lunati rollers I was getting oil out of all the lifters but still had a noise, so, I pulled the engine to inspect and find the cause of the lifter noise. It turned out that the new AFR 185 Heads had weak valve springs.

The spring pressures were verified with a Longacre and Remik spring tester. One spring had 105 seat and 280 open. Specs for those springs are 140 seat and 356 open at .600. You could even see where the valve had been bouncing. I did not bother checking them all. This motor only has 150 miles or less and has never seen 3000 rpm yet. I called AFR and was offered a new set of springs. That did not sit right with me so I called Summit where I bought the heads and they next day delivered a new set This time I dissembled them and valve spring installed height on 13 of them was 1.825 out of the box and the spring calls for 1.810. I added a .015 shim to those and got that right. Its a bummer that I had to do all that work when it should have already been done during the factory build. I checked all the spring pressures and they were spot on. AFR does not want to send you replacement heads if you have an issue with springs. They will send you a new set of springs. WTH. I spent good money for a set of bolt on heads. I am not responsible for changing out defective parts. The only reason I dissembled them this time was to make sure of what I had before I bolted them on.
Next time I will buy good bare castings and build them myself.
 
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2/75TH RANGER

Member
Oct 6, 2013
10
11
24
Kyle Texas
Dec 23, 2017
#2
  • Dec 23, 2017
  • #2
I found the math I was looking for to get ICL from another thread here
Intake Opens 3° BTDC + Intake Close 38° BTDC = 41 + 180 = 221 divide by 2 = 110.50 - Intake Open 3° = 107.50 ICL
Now I am more confused since my degree wheel is telling me it is 112.

What am I missing
 

95BlueStallion

My assy trans to myself
15 Year Member
Feb 22, 2007
5,125
3,091
214
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Dec 23, 2017
#3
  • Dec 23, 2017
  • #3
@madmike1157 , you seem to know cam talk. What say you?
 

FastDriver

I was uncomfortably high & wearing a helmet
SN Certified Technician
Sep 5, 2001
6,062
2,666
224
Vass, NC
Dec 23, 2017
#4
  • Dec 23, 2017
  • #4
Sorry to hear about your luck with AFR. I'll bet Tony Mamo wouldnt be happy to hear that's how his company treated a serviceman. Also, Rangers lead the way! Thanks for pushing through the tough lifestyle you lead, and welcome to the forums.

ICL is 107.5. You did the math right even though you cited intake close BTDC when you meant ABDC. ICL is 107.5*

Most modern cams have an asymmetrical design which means that the ICL may not be the point of maximum lift. For example, the valve may open faster than it closes. I found an old post here indicating that the TFS Stage 1 cam has max lift at ICL, but I cannot verify it through TFS or any reputable source.

Therefore, I suggest that you check the angle at .050" lift for opening and closing and compare that with the specs you listed. Those numbers will always be more precise than the ICL degreeing method . If they are correct, you're GTG.

If they do not match the specs and you're still sure it's the TFS1, then the cam is advanced or retarded, and all numbers would appear to be off. So, you could cross check the numbers with each other. If they're still off, let us know.

Chris
 
Last edited: Dec 23, 2017

2/75TH RANGER

Member
Oct 6, 2013
10
11
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Kyle Texas
Dec 23, 2017
#5
  • Dec 23, 2017
  • #5
I ended up advancing the crank gear 4 degrees. I used the degree wheel again and this time i came up with 107.5. I guess there was no advance put in the cam or the billet timing set is off. I checked it 4 times and came up with same number each time.
 

FastDriver

I was uncomfortably high & wearing a helmet
SN Certified Technician
Sep 5, 2001
6,062
2,666
224
Vass, NC
Dec 23, 2017
#6
  • Dec 23, 2017
  • #6
Sounds good. I adjusted my post a bit, have another look.
 

2/75TH RANGER

Member
Oct 6, 2013
10
11
24
Kyle Texas
Dec 23, 2017
#7
  • Dec 23, 2017
  • #7
FastDriver said:
Sounds good. I adjusted my post a bit, have another look.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the welcome Chris. It's great to be a part of the community here.

I did measure the intake at .050 before I open and .050 before close to get my numbers.
 
Reactions: FastDriver

revhead347

Apparently my ex-husband made that mistake.
20+ Year Stangneter
Jun 14, 2004
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Acworth, GA
Dec 24, 2017
#8
  • Dec 24, 2017
  • #8
Send it and tell us how it runs. ICL adjustments only move the torque curve a few 100rpms either side. I think you should be good with the springs worked out. Sorry you had to deal with that with AFR heads. They have always been known for their customer service.

Kurt
 

2/75TH RANGER

Member
Oct 6, 2013
10
11
24
Kyle Texas
Dec 26, 2017
#9
  • Dec 26, 2017
  • #9
FastDriver said:
Sorry to hear about your luck with AFR. I'll bet Tony Mamo wouldnt be happy to hear that's how his company treated a serviceman. Also, Rangers lead the way! Thanks for pushing through the tough lifestyle you lead, and welcome to the forums.

ICL is 107.5. You did the math right even though you cited intake close BTDC when you meant ABDC. ICL is 107.5*

Most modern cams have an asymmetrical design which means that the ICL may not be the point of maximum lift. For example, the valve may open faster than it closes. I found an old post here indicating that the TFS Stage 1 cam has max lift at ICL, but I cannot verify it through TFS or any reputable source.

Therefore, I suggest that you check the angle at .050" lift for opening and closing and compare that with the specs you listed. Those numbers will always be more precise than the ICL degreeing method . If they are correct, you're GTG.

If they do not match the specs and you're still sure it's the TFS1, then the cam is advanced or retarded, and all numbers would appear to be off. So, you could cross check the numbers with each other. If they're still off, let us know.

Chris
Click to expand...
I was led to believe the person Rick that I talked to was the owner. AFR has supplied some big names in the race world and you see the AFR logo under a lot of hoods.
I have also read that they have QC Points all other their plant. The guy at AFR told me that they have a .015+/- on Install Heights. Maybe I am being too picky but I want my stuff to be on Spec. If the Spring Co. says at 1.810 then that is what I think it should be. I really like the looks of the heads if you over look some minor flaws. Those flaw however do not affect the way they flow so I ignore them.
 

2/75TH RANGER

Member
Oct 6, 2013
10
11
24
Kyle Texas
Dec 26, 2017
#10
  • Dec 26, 2017
  • #10
I know that a custom grind would be a good way to go but my customer is getting ansy. I used advise and numbers to come up with the TFS Stage 1 cam for this engine but it was doggy on the bottom end. Now that I advanced it 4° I am still not sure it is going to perform the way he wants which is low end grunt. He wants somewhat of a lumpy idle so close lobe separation is needed for that but every cam I look at is 2000 or higher at the start of the operating range.

Does anyone know of an OTC cam that will give a Carbed 306 with AFR 185 heads and Weiand Stealth Intake lots a low end torque. 355 gears and C4 auto with GV Overdrive. 2500 stall or more like 2300. Car weighs in the neighborhood 3400-3600 lbs.

Duke
 
G

grumpy150

Active Member
Dec 12, 2017
125
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Mid michigan
Dec 30, 2017
#11
  • Dec 30, 2017
  • #11
2/75TH RANGER said:
I know that a custom grind would be a good way to go but my customer is getting ansy. I used advise and numbers to come up with the TFS Stage 1 cam for this engine but it was doggy on the bottom end. Now that I advanced it 4° I am still not sure it is going to perform the way he wants which is low end grunt. He wants somewhat of a lumpy idle so close lobe separation is needed for that but every cam I look at is 2000 or higher at the start of the operating range.

Does anyone know of an OTC cam that will give a Carbed 306 with AFR 185 heads and Weiand Stealth Intake lots a low end torque. 355 gears and C4 auto with GV Overdrive. 2500 stall or more like 2300. Car weighs in the neighborhood 3400-3600 lbs.

Duke
Click to expand...
Do your self a big favor call comp cams hands down the best there is.lol in my opion. (Hazers)
 
Reactions: revhead347

2/75TH RANGER

Member
Oct 6, 2013
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Kyle Texas
Dec 31, 2017
#12
  • Dec 31, 2017
  • #12
I did just that. Talked to Chris there and we came up with a recipe that will work perfect for me. Appreciate the input.
 
Reactions: grumpy150
G

grumpy150

Active Member
Dec 12, 2017
125
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38
Mid michigan
Dec 31, 2017
#13
  • Dec 31, 2017
  • #13
2/75TH RANGER said:
I did just that. Talked to Chris there and we came up with a recipe that will work perfect for me. Appreciate the input.
Click to expand...
Glad I could help
 

Mustang5L5

That is…until I whipped out my Bissell
Mod Dude
Feb 18, 2001
43,164
17,858
224
Massachusetts
Dec 31, 2017
#14
  • Dec 31, 2017
  • #14
So Is there an off the shelf cam? Because I'm looking for the same thing and currently have a TFS1 on my shelf. I've frequently heard it needs RPM and short gearing to be happy
 

revhead347

Apparently my ex-husband made that mistake.
20+ Year Stangneter
Jun 14, 2004
9,288
1,631
214
Acworth, GA
Dec 31, 2017
#15
  • Dec 31, 2017
  • #15
grumpy150 said:
Do your self a big favor call comp cams hands down the best there is.lol in my opion. (Hazers)
Click to expand...

Totally agree. Cams are a little more complicated, and information on a forum is going to be piecemeal. Best to call an expert.

Kurt
 
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