Needing Some Vortech/Meth injection Advice

sethahoward · Feb 14, 2012

I currently have a 02 Mustang with a Vortech V-2, Headers and full exhaust, the engine is bone stock oil pan to throttle body, I am wanting to install meth injection and I am looking at the Snow Stage 2 setup. Has anyone had any experience, good or bad, with this? I am planning on using my stock window washer tank for the reservoir, What else will I need to do in order to install this on my car? I've read something about relocating the Intake air temp sensor. What all does this entail? I also need advice on a new pulley. I currently have the stock 3.60 pulley and would like to drop to a smaller size. The car currently makes about 6 psi of boost. What would be a safe boost level with meth injection on a stock bottom end? I am also going to get my car dyno tuned at a local Mustang dyno shop in the spring. Any help would be very appreciated, I am relatively new the 2V. Thanks in advance.

04torktech · Feb 14, 2012

I was going to go down your root. I installed a non intercooled Vortech set up with ~10lbs of boost but didn't like the loss in power during the summer months. I initially wanted to go with a Meth injection set up but was guided otherwise and never looked back. Here is my concern with Meth...
You install a Meth setup and inject Meth to cool your intake charge. Your car now effectively makes less power due to the Meth diluting your intake charge so you add timing to compensate. But since you have Meth you decide to add more timing to take advantage of the prospect of the cooler intake charge. However consider something goes wrong and you don't inject meth (and it happens more often than not). Now you have a lot more timing (first to compensate for the meth and than to get some added power) but are without the meth and that can be a very expensive accident. Plus you need to refill Meth! Why not go to an air to air intercooler and you have consistent safe power that will eventually pay for itself!

I pieced together an intercooler set up it took me two days to do. I took my time and did it right and did not remove the front bumper support. My car currently makes 420rwhp and 408rwtrq on 11-12 lbs of boost (albeit in the winter time). The entire setup wasn't bad at all. I got the piping and intercooler from CX racing. A blow through MAF from HPX and a BOV from Vortech not to mention a couple other odds and ends. Trust me it is the way to go. And think how sick a FMIC looks not to mention the awesome sound of a V8 with a BOV! That's just my advice.

sethahoward · Feb 15, 2012

If you don't mind me asking, how much do you have invested in your setup? Also, which cx kit did you use? I see there are several kits available. Thanks

04torktech · Feb 15, 2012

I have $1100 invested in my set up which does not include the dyno tune. I did all the work myself. I went ahead and got 60# injectors when I put on the intercooler so I would have some leeway down the road if I wanted to make more power which added to the cost by about $350. Unfortunately I do not know the exact CX kit (but I can find that out). My tuner installs a lot of kits like mine on his customer's cars so I talked it over with him and he purchased the materials than I put it on. He recommended the CX intercooler and piping and the reciept doesn't give the specific kit. If you plan on doing it all yourself it will take longer than installing just the SC since you need to cut pipe and weld in a bung for the IAC and for the BOV. The $1100 covered everything I needed for the intercooler. When I first did the supercharger I bought a V2 kit used and spent $1800 tuned

musclemustangcb · Feb 15, 2012

I Too run a vortech v2 on my 00 roush, mines intercool'd. I just picked up a stg 2 snow performance kit. My buddy Danny did too. He runs a intercool'd pro charger. We both used our washer fluid tanks.

sneaky98gt · Feb 16, 2012

04torktech said:
I was going to go down your root. I installed a non intercooled Vortech set up with ~10lbs of boost but didn't like the loss in power during the summer months. I initially wanted to go with a Meth injection set up but was guided otherwise and never looked back. Here is my concern with Meth...
You install a Meth setup and inject Meth to cool your intake charge. Your car now effectively makes less power due to the Meth diluting your intake charge so you add timing to compensate. But since you have Meth you decide to add more timing to take advantage of the prospect of the cooler intake charge. However consider something goes wrong and you don't inject meth (and it happens more often than not). Now you have a lot more timing (first to compensate for the meth and than to get some added power) but are without the meth and that can be a very expensive accident. Plus you need to refill Meth! Why not go to an air to air intercooler and you have consistent safe power that will eventually pay for itself!

I pieced together an intercooler set up it took me two days to do. I took my time and did it right and did not remove the front bumper support. My car currently makes 420rwhp and 408rwtrq on 11-12 lbs of boost (albeit in the winter time). The entire setup wasn't bad at all. I got the piping and intercooler from CX racing. A blow through MAF from HPX and a BOV from Vortech not to mention a couple other odds and ends. Trust me it is the way to go. And think how sick a FMIC looks not to mention the awesome sound of a V8 with a BOV! That's just my advice.

Before I begin, I need to say that I agree with your advice to get an intercooler instead, for simplicity's sake. BUT, I need to straighten some stuff up regarding methanol.

First, you are not going to make less power spraying meth with no changes to the tune. If you do, it will not be recordable at the track or on the dyno. Your 100% stock tune adds or removes timing based on intake temps; methanol cools those intake temps and the computer will thus add timing (albeit probably not an optimal amount). My car was originally tuned without methanol; I installed an AIS methanol kit and picked up over 2 mph at the track with the methanol, with absolutely no changes at all to the tune.

Second, why on earth would you spray methanol and NOT make changes to the tune? That's the same as tuning the a car without an intercooler, installing an intercooler, and then not retuning. While there's nothing wrong with that, you will not see anywhere near optimal power by doing that.

Thirdly, when tuned properly, methanol is about as safe as it gets. And it's actually very easy to tune. You simply tune the car (AFR and timing) without any methanol just like you would any non-intercooled car. Then you hit it with 'X' amount of methanol, which will DRAMATICALLY decrease the intake air temps (I see a drop of 90-120 degrees, depending on ambient air temp). Leave the AFR alone; it will show it going pretty rich, but that's misleading because the stoichimetric ratio of methanol isn't the same 14.7 as gasoline. My car actually drops roughly half a point hitting it with a HUGE shot of methanol. Most people will see it get .2-.3 richer with methanol. And finally, you adjust the spark tables to add timing at those cooler temps. When tuned like this, the computer will pull timing if the temps go up (i.e. no methanol) to keep it safe; and if the temps stay way down (i.e. methanol is spraying), it adds timing, makes more power, and everyone's happy. Once tuned correctly, your car will make HUGE power from methanol. Once I got a proper tune, I picked up 8 mph in the 1/4 with absolutely no changes other than flipping the methanol switch on. Do the math, and we're talking 70+ rwhp (although I can tell you that you definitely won't see that kind of gain on a dyno).

I'm honestly shocked at how many people don't understand how to tune methanol via this method. It is so very easy and simple to do, and is very fool proof. I actually had the methanol system fail on me once at the track recently; the tune pulled timing and nothing was hurt (minus my E.T. on that run). Tuning it this way also allows you to turn it off when daily driving to keep from using any methanol. I use <3 gallons per month (minus track trips, which I usually use ~1.5 gallons), which totals to around $5 a month, and that's with big nozzles and it being armed most of the time.

Lastly, everything else equal, a car spraying methanol will run better at the track than a car running an intercooler. There is no boost loss from methanol (actually a boost gain [~1 pound] from increased adiabatic efficiency of the blower, if you spray pre-blower), and you can run much more timing with methanol due to the increased octane rating. I'm running 25 degrees of timing at the track without even a hint of detonation. Try that on a blown car on pump gas alone. Most I've heard of an intercooled car running on pump gas is about 18 degrees.

Oh, and one last thing for everyone's information. You said you wanted an intercooler to keep from losing power in the summer months. An intercooler does NOT increase the amount of oxygen in the intake charge. It simply cools the temp. The oxygen mass in the intake charge is 100% proportional to the oxygen in the ambient air. There is nothing you can do to change that (other than nitrous or the like). If you locked the timing on your tune, and then installed an intercooler, you would see absolutely no performance increase from the intercooler. You would actually see a decrease because of the inefficiencies and boost loss through the intercooler. Every single bit of the power increase you see from an intercooler (and methanol for that matter) is a result of increased spark timing which is now possible due to cooler intake temps, NOT from a denser air charge.

Rick 91GT · Feb 16, 2012

Will, hit the nail on the head

I typically see 70-100hp gain on cars with the Snow kit, I was shocked at the gains once I figured things out. My first expiernence was with it on a Ford 7.3L diesel, it felt like N2O when it came on...soon after I signed up to be a Snow Dealer, I was sold on the gain for the $$.

As far as the safety of meth, Snow does make a "Safeinjection" http://www.snowperformance.net/safeinjection.html Im seeing more of my customers go this route, along with the larger reservior that we trunk mount.

Seth, I wouldn't push the stock 2v much past 8-10lbs with a good tune

sethahoward · Feb 17, 2012

Well, now I'm back on the meth train again. My car is just a weekend car. And I do take it to the track in the summer. So refilling the tank is not really an issue. So is there anything I need to do before going to the tuner's other than install the kit? Also do you reccomend installing the nozzle before the blower? Thanks for all the help guys

Rick 91GT · Feb 17, 2012

Between the Vortech and throttle body is the proper placement.

Just test the kit to make sure ot sprays correctly and in the proper direction before you go to the tuner.

04torktech · Feb 17, 2012

sneaky98gt said:
Before I begin, I need to say that I agree with your advice to get an intercooler instead, for simplicity's sake. BUT, I need to straighten some stuff up regarding methanol.

First, you are not going to make less power spraying meth with no changes to the tune. If you do, it will not be recordable at the track or on the dyno. Your 100% stock tune adds or removes timing based on intake temps; methanol cools those intake temps and the computer will thus add timing (albeit probably not an optimal amount). My car was originally tuned without methanol; I installed an AIS methanol kit and picked up over 2 mph at the track with the methanol, with absolutely no changes at all to the tune.

Second, why on earth would you spray methanol and NOT make changes to the tune? That's the same as tuning the a car without an intercooler, installing an intercooler, and then not retuning. While there's nothing wrong with that, you will not see anywhere near optimal power by doing that.

Thirdly, when tuned properly, methanol is about as safe as it gets. And it's actually very easy to tune. You simply tune the car (AFR and timing) without any methanol just like you would any non-intercooled car. Then you hit it with 'X' amount of methanol, which will DRAMATICALLY decrease the intake air temps (I see a drop of 90-120 degrees, depending on ambient air temp). Leave the AFR alone; it will show it going pretty rich, but that's misleading because the stoichimetric ratio of methanol isn't the same 14.7 as gasoline. My car actually drops roughly half a point hitting it with a HUGE shot of methanol. Most people will see it get .2-.3 richer with methanol. And finally, you adjust the spark tables to add timing at those cooler temps. When tuned like this, the computer will pull timing if the temps go up (i.e. no methanol) to keep it safe; and if the temps stay way down (i.e. methanol is spraying), it adds timing, makes more power, and everyone's happy. Once tuned correctly, your car will make HUGE power from methanol. Once I got a proper tune, I picked up 8 mph in the 1/4 with absolutely no changes other than flipping the methanol switch on. Do the math, and we're talking 70+ rwhp (although I can tell you that you definitely won't see that kind of gain on a dyno).

I'm honestly shocked at how many people don't understand how to tune methanol via this method. It is so very easy and simple to do, and is very fool proof. I actually had the methanol system fail on me once at the track recently; the tune pulled timing and nothing was hurt (minus my E.T. on that run). Tuning it this way also allows you to turn it off when daily driving to keep from using any methanol. I use <3 gallons per month (minus track trips, which I usually use ~1.5 gallons), which totals to around $5 a month, and that's with big nozzles and it being armed most of the time.

Lastly, everything else equal, a car spraying methanol will run better at the track than a car running an intercooler. There is no boost loss from methanol (actually a boost gain [~1 pound] from increased adiabatic efficiency of the blower, if you spray pre-blower), and you can run much more timing with methanol due to the increased octane rating. I'm running 25 degrees of timing at the track without even a hint of detonation. Try that on a blown car on pump gas alone. Most I've heard of an intercooled car running on pump gas is about 18 degrees.

Oh, and one last thing for everyone's information. You said you wanted an intercooler to keep from losing power in the summer months. An intercooler does NOT increase the amount of oxygen in the intake charge. It simply cools the temp. The oxygen mass in the intake charge is 100% proportional to the oxygen in the ambient air. There is nothing you can do to change that (other than nitrous or the like). If you locked the timing on your tune, and then installed an intercooler, you would see absolutely no performance increase from the intercooler. You would actually see a decrease because of the inefficiencies and boost loss through the intercooler. Every single bit of the power increase you see from an intercooler (and methanol for that matter) is a result of increased spark timing which is now possible due to cooler intake temps, NOT from a denser air charge.

You make a very good point which I did not consider initially which is in the event of failure in the meth system the computer should have ample time to pull timing accordingly prior to failure. In this sense meth injection is relatively safe but still not as reliable as an intercooler no matter how you argue it. In my opinion I would much rather get into my car and drive off and not have to worry if I pull up next to a cammed Camaro SS if I refilled my meth reservoir this month or have my system armed. It sounds like meth injection worked well for you and you are extremely happy but why not install a system which pays for itself, has no moving/electrical parts, and requires no refills? And another thing I am a little curious about the horsepower numbers in the picture 335rwhp is that with the supercharger? That seems pretty low even for a non intercooled no meth injection setup?

cronin49 · Feb 23, 2012

Rick 91GT said:
Will, hit the nail on the head

I typically see 70-100hp gain on cars with the Snow kit, I was shocked at the gains once I figured things out. My first expiernence was with it on a Ford 7.3L diesel, it felt like N2O when it came on...soon after I signed up to be a Snow Dealer, I was sold on the gain for the $$.

As far as the safety of meth, Snow does make a "Safeinjection" http://www.snowperformance.net/safeinjection.html Im seeing more of my customers go this route, along with the larger reservior that we trunk mount.

Seth, I wouldn't push the stock 2v much past 8-10lbs with a good tune

Wow, 70-100 hp gain! Meth, here I come! I have been trying to figure out an inexpensive way to make more power. I have dumped about $18,000 into her since 2003 when I bought her new, so what's another grand! That should put me right around 500rwhp. Then I'm done. (yeah, right,lol!) THANK, YOU!!

slayerripkdc · Feb 23, 2012

cronin49 said:
Wow, 70-100 hp gain! Meth, here I come! I have been trying to figure out an inexpensive way to make more power. I have dumped about $18,000 into her since 2003 when I bought her new, so what's another grand! That should put me right around 500rwhp. Then I'm done. (yeah, right,lol!) THANK, YOU!!

Cronin you do have a built 03-04 Cobra block correct? Can't you just up the boost on your Novi 2000 to 14lbs and easily and safely make those numbers?

cronin49 · Mar 4, 2012

slayerripkdc said:
Cronin you do have a built 03-04 Cobra block correct? Can't you just up the boost on your Novi 2000 to 14lbs and easily and safely make those numbers?

Yes I could, but right now I am not intercooled. I would need to do that first, correct? Do you know what the smallest pulley is that they sell for my Paxton2000. Paxton's customer service sux. Do you think I could get away with a really small pulley and no intercooler? I baby my car, only letting it rip a few times a year.

slayerripkdc · Mar 4, 2012

cronin49 said:
Yes I could, but right now I am not intercooled. I would need to do that first, correct? Do you know what the smallest pulley is that they sell for my Paxton2000. Paxton's customer service sux. Do you think I could get away with a really small pulley and no intercooler? I baby my car, only letting it rip a few times a year.

I have seen people run a 2.75 and 2.95 before. If you are not looking to spend that much more cash on your car I would suggest Meth! As you have seen a few members here have had some great results with it.

sneaky98gt · Mar 4, 2012

04torktech said:
You make a very good point which I did not consider initially which is in the event of failure in the meth system the computer should have ample time to pull timing accordingly prior to failure. In this sense meth injection is relatively safe but still not as reliable as an intercooler no matter how you argue it. In my opinion I would much rather get into my car and drive off and not have to worry if I pull up next to a cammed Camaro SS if I refilled my meth reservoir this month or have my system armed. It sounds like meth injection worked well for you and you are extremely happy but why not install a system which pays for itself, has no moving/electrical parts, and requires no refills? And another thing I am a little curious about the horsepower numbers in the picture 335rwhp is that with the supercharger? That seems pretty low even for a non intercooled no meth injection setup?

Oops, forgot to reply to this a couple weeks ago.

Is methanol as 'reliable' as an intercooler? Eh, no, it's not. And that's the reason I'd still recommend an intercooler if the budget/setup allows for one (I physically CAN'T run an intercooler with my blower).

BUT, from a safety standpoint, the methanol is in no way inferior to an intercooler so long as it's tuned properly. And it will make more power. Matter of fact, a couple of local race classes in my area ban methanol because it makes that much more power.

You make out like filling the methanol is a big deal; it's really not. Do you ever forget to fill up with gas? Probably not. I simply keep a gallon in my trunk all the time, and when filling up with gas, I'll take a peek into the methanol tank. If it's low, I'll add the gallon and fill it up when I get home. And you can even get a low-level sensor for the tank as well.

Paying for itself. On average, I use 4 gallons of 25/75 methanol/water a month. I mix my own, and get methanol for $4 a gallon. So that's $4/month, or $48 a year. My kit cost $300 out the door brand new. I'm not sure what an intercooler costs, but I'm gonna guess about $1000. So it would take 14 YEARS for the intercooler to pay for itself. Most VERY few people on this sight have or ever will own a particular Mustang for 14 years. I understand what your saying with the intercooler being simpler, easier, etc., (and is why I'd still recommend it), BUT, methanol is cheaper.

And please don't get me wrong. I'm in about 90% agreement with you. I'm just offering up a different point of view from someone with first-hand experience with methanol. There's a decent amount of unfounded negative connotation that has been associated with methanol in the past. And I now know from experience that it is AWESOME stuff when used/tuned correctly.

Yes, 335 rwhp is my most recent dyno numbers. It is with the supercharger, cams, methanol, etc. BUT, those are SAE corrected numbers on a low-reading dyno on a day with not-so-good weather. Last weekend, my car went 11.94 @ 118.40 mph with the stock converter, gears, and almost full weight (minus spare tire, jack, and passenger seat). Based on that, I'd say it's making a solid 380-390 rwhp.

04torktech · Mar 4, 2012

sneaky98gt said:
Oops, forgot to reply to this a couple weeks ago.

Is methanol as 'reliable' as an intercooler? Eh, no, it's not. And that's the reason I'd still recommend an intercooler if the budget/setup allows for one (I physically CAN'T run an intercooler with my blower).

BUT, from a safety standpoint, the methanol is in no way inferior to an intercooler so long as it's tuned properly. And it will make more power. Matter of fact, a couple of local race classes in my area ban methanol because it makes that much more power.

You make out like filling the methanol is a big deal; it's really not. Do you ever forget to fill up with gas? Probably not. I simply keep a gallon in my trunk all the time, and when filling up with gas, I'll take a peek into the methanol tank. If it's low, I'll add the gallon and fill it up when I get home. And you can even get a low-level sensor for the tank as well.

Paying for itself. On average, I use 4 gallons of 25/75 methanol/water a month. I mix my own, and get methanol for $4 a gallon. So that's $4/month, or $48 a year. My kit cost $300 out the door brand new. I'm not sure what an intercooler costs, but I'm gonna guess about $1000. So it would take 14 YEARS for the intercooler to pay for itself. Most VERY few people on this sight have or ever will own a particular Mustang for 14 years. I understand what your saying with the intercooler being simpler, easier, etc., (and is why I'd still recommend it), BUT, methanol is cheaper.

And please don't get me wrong. I'm in about 90% agreement with you. I'm just offering up a different point of view from someone with first-hand experience with methanol. There's a decent amount of unfounded negative connotation that has been associated with methanol in the past. And I now know from experience that it is AWESOME stuff when used/tuned correctly.

Yes, 335 rwhp is my most recent dyno numbers. It is with the supercharger, cams, methanol, etc. BUT, those are SAE corrected numbers on a low-reading dyno on a day with not-so-good weather. Last weekend, my car went 11.94 @ 118.40 mph with the stock converter, gears, and almost full weight (minus spare tire, jack, and passenger seat). Based on that, I'd say it's making a solid 380-390 rwhp.

It is extremely nice to be able to be able to have a debate on a forum without it turning nasty or downright stupid. Sounds like your car is quite the beast! What cams are you running and have you given any thought to the Victor Jr. EFI intake. A friend of mine had a automatic 2V making 385rwhp and swapped to the Edelbrock and is now making ~440rwhp with no other modifications. I wanted to do it but I am right at the edge of safety on my stock bottom end so I figured it was best to hold off.

cronin49 · Mar 4, 2012

sneaky98gt said:
Oops, forgot to reply to this a couple weeks ago.

Is methanol as 'reliable' as an intercooler? Eh, no, it's not. And that's the reason I'd still recommend an intercooler if the budget/setup allows for one (I physically CAN'T run an intercooler with my blower).

BUT, from a safety standpoint, the methanol is in no way inferior to an intercooler so long as it's tuned properly. And it will make more power. Matter of fact, a couple of local race classes in my area ban methanol because it makes that much more power.

You make out like filling the methanol is a big deal; it's really not. Do you ever forget to fill up with gas? Probably not. I simply keep a gallon in my trunk all the time, and when filling up with gas, I'll take a peek into the methanol tank. If it's low, I'll add the gallon and fill it up when I get home. And you can even get a low-level sensor for the tank as well.

Paying for itself. On average, I use 4 gallons of 25/75 methanol/water a month. I mix my own, and get methanol for $4 a gallon. So that's $4/month, or $48 a year. My kit cost $300 out the door brand new. I'm not sure what an intercooler costs, but I'm gonna guess about $1000. So it would take 14 YEARS for the intercooler to pay for itself. Most VERY few people on this sight have or ever will own a particular Mustang for 14 years. I understand what your saying with the intercooler being simpler, easier, etc., (and is why I'd still recommend it), BUT, methanol is cheaper.

And please don't get me wrong. I'm in about 90% agreement with you. I'm just offering up a different point of view from someone with first-hand experience with methanol. There's a decent amount of unfounded negative connotation that has been associated with methanol in the past. And I now know from experience that it is AWESOME stuff when used/tuned correctly.

Yes, 335 rwhp is my most recent dyno numbers. It is with the supercharger, cams, methanol, etc. BUT, those are SAE corrected numbers on a low-reading dyno on a day with not-so-good weather. Last weekend, my car went 11.94 @ 118.40 mph with the stock converter, gears, and almost full weight (minus spare tire, jack, and passenger seat). Based on that, I'd say it's making a solid 380-390 rwhp.

You might be making even more than 380-390 hp. That 11.94 @ 118 is EXACTLY what I ran with 425+ rwhp! And mine is a Vert with 373's. Good going!

04torktech · Mar 5, 2012

Yea I agree I was trapping 114 with ~400rwhp. I am curious to see if my trap speed changes at all now that I am making 20 more rwhp.

Needing Some Vortech/Meth injection Advice

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