Negative Wedge Kits for 67?

Ronstang · Apr 18, 2004

Yeah john, I love your lower arm idea. Mine are already boxed but I like the other ideas...FANTASTIC!!!!! Your'e a man after my own heart. Would you mind sharing more info on making those upgrades to a fellow Stanger?

GypsyR · Apr 18, 2004

No. That's why I'm not copying them. And I didn't print out the specs and part numbers. Pay no attention to those bearings on my workbench next to the replacement lower arms, doesn't mean a thing. Nope, not me.

Opentracker · Apr 18, 2004

The ball joint is from AFCO #20034 and the sleeve is #20043. The spherical bearing is from National Bearing. I made the sleeve out of seamless 1 1/2" tubing and the brace is also hand made. It all takes time but well worth it.

John

So what about the carpet - I want some!

Ronstang · Apr 18, 2004

Thanks John, I have full acces to a machine shop so I can basically make anything I want/need. How do you retain the spherical bearing?

EDIT.....I guess it is a press fit, huh?

DarkBuddha · Apr 18, 2004

First, that wedge kit pictured above doesn't look right at all... mine, from Pro-motorsports, fit the contour of the arm better and certainly doesn't have that kind of gap in it. I'd be concerned it it looked like that thing too...

I totally agree that the fabrication method is a great idea and probably is a more ideal way of dealing with the situation. One thought though... I'm a big fan of my car functionally being a street driver, which means being able to get parts and fix the thing in a parking lot in Anywhere USA on a weekend. The only issue with fabricated parts is the necessity of having to redo the fabrication should the thing fail (worst case scenario, I know)... I figure with the wedge kit, as long as the block of billet aluminum doesn't break in half, I can probably replace the arm, the ball joint, or any of the bushings, anytime, anywhere (though getting an arm may require a trip to a local junkyard). All that said, if I were to do it again, I'd seriously consider the fabrication method.

Opentracker · Apr 18, 2004

I do it like the Global West guys do it. I spot weld in a small sleeve on the inside of the main sleeve to hold the bearing in place. I need to take a good photo. This showes the bearing and the spacer.

John

bnickel · Apr 18, 2004

hey john, i think the pic you provided for the wedge kit was actually the wedge kit for an aussie falcon, theie front suspension is similar to ours but different enough that the wedge kits they use look like that, also i think they did it that way so they could still access the factory grease zerk instead of using the "special" ball joint that pro-motorsports uses, which is now what most manufacturers use as a standard replacement, i think

HistoricMustang · Apr 18, 2004

DarkBuddha, thanks for agreeing, in your own "special way".

Conversation is good, expecially when everyone leaves out the "four letter words".

HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

DarkBuddha · Apr 18, 2004

HistoricMustang said:
DarkBuddha, thanks for agreeing, in your own "special way".

Conversation is good, expecially when everyone leaves out the "four letter words".

HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

Right on... if you wanna hear four letter words, just mention Eleanor near me. You'd get an ear full, and thats why I try to avoid that tired old topic and related threads.

thehueypilot · Apr 18, 2004

Is the new upper control arms from NPD called "Blue Moon Suspension" already designed to include the negative wedge angle? If this is true then I won't need to drill two more holes into my shock towers? Has anyone tried these? I saw them at NPD booth at the 40th in Nashville this weekend?

bnickel · Apr 18, 2004

haven't heard of them, did they say it had it built in? that would be cool

Opentracker · Apr 19, 2004

Is the new upper control arms from NPD called "Blue Moon Suspension" already designed to include the negative wedge angle? If this is true then I won't need to drill two more holes into my shock towers? Has anyone tried these? I saw them at NPD booth at the 40th in Nashville this weekend?

If you don't drill new holes in the shock tower, you won't get the benefit from 'The Wedge Kit', or any aftermarket upper arm that has the upper ball joint angle changed. It should be called a wedge system because that's what it is. With the upper ball joint in the stock location on the upper arm, it is ok to drill holes 1" lower and 1/8" back in the early cars. It is not ok to drill them 1 3/4" lower and 1/8" back because that brings the ball joint into bind upon joust. The wege system takes the ball joint out of bind upon joust. That's it. It changes the angle of the ball joint. It does nothing on it's own in helping the car go faster. The holes have to be drilled lower to get the geometry gain and that makes the front tires stick better.

John

HistoricMustang · Apr 19, 2004

Buddha, you and I totally agree on that point. I have never put up a post about that partial birth abortion - "E". And I have not gone to see another movie that "whats his face" has made.

HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

HistoricMustang · Apr 19, 2004

Should we bring up "bias ply" vs "radial" and how those two effect the negative wedge situation? I do not run a "negative wedge kit" for all the reasons I have stated, but have used "bias ply" Hoosier Street TD's for a number of years.

HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

DarkBuddha · Apr 19, 2004

HistoricMustang said:
Should we bring up "bias ply" vs "radial" and how those two effect the negative wedge situation? I do not run a "negative wedge kit" for all the reasons I have stated, but have used "bias ply" Hoosier Street TD's for a number of years.

HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

Oh sure... just throw some more gas on the fire... j/k.

HistoricMustang · Apr 20, 2004

Buddha, I simply love your wit! Perhaps we have obtained our "meeting of the minds".

I cut class when they covered geometry so this negative wedge stuff does not make a lot of sense to me. However, I do know that most of the early models in competition form use bias plys even though the rules simply say a DOT approved tire not indicating whether it be bias ply or radial.

From all of this can I assume that the bias ply helps these things to turn? If that is the case do radials actually hurt the turning performance of this vehicle we all like so much? After all, the car was designed around the bias ply tire.

Perhaps people are buying something to correct a problem that is actually aggrivated by something else they are buying that was never intended to be on the car in the first place.

OK, I am off to work and will leave everyone (including myself) scratching their heads.

HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

Dinosawnj · Apr 20, 2004

HistoricMustang said:
After all, the car was designed around the bias ply tire. Perhaps people are buying something to correct a problem that is actually aggrivated by something else they are buying that was never intended to be on the car in the first place.

True, on a basically stock early model suspension, a bias ply is probably a better choice (see below). Radial tires are a better choice on a prepped suspension with plenty of negative camber (Hooiser radials like -3 or more) and a good negative camber curve. This allows more tuning of the suspension with softer springs/bars. Higher spring rates run in most vintage classes are used to lock in the suspension settings limit the suspensions movement (no bump steer or positve camber curve issues if it doesn't move). The tire is the suspension.

Many vintage production sports cars are racing on street radials. These are DOT approved, are relatively inexpensive and are readily available. Street radials, however, give the driver less feedback about the limit of adhesion of the car than do bias ply racing tires. The traditional racing tires are bias ply constructed and are easier to drive on the limit than a radial tire. Those of us that race only a few times a year need all the help we can get, and bias ply racing tires are a big help. The side force generated by the radial tire increases with increasing slip angle on the tire However, with increasing side force, after the maximum side force has been reached, the radial tire's side force drops off. This is the characteristic of the radial tire, and is apparent to the racing driver by a sudden loss of traction at the limit of adhesion.

The bias ply will also develop its side force as the slip angle increases, but at a slightly lesser slope. The peak of the bias ply curve may be the same as that of the radial tire, but the slip angle will be greater. However, at the limit the bias ply does not have a real peak, but rather a plateau. Increasing slip angles do not cause a sudden drop off of the side force, but usually the side force is maintained at quite large slip angles. Therefore the driver with bias ply tires has a much larger range of slip angles to feel what the car is doing. The result is usually a driver who will go faster and who will have more fun.

HistoricMustang · Apr 20, 2004

Damn that was great!

I always knew the old bias ply's worked and felt better but could never put it into words.

Kids, see what happens when you cut classes.

Thanks again,

HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

66stangmeister · Apr 20, 2004

well, since everyone's talking about these negative wedge kits....I've seen this template deal on eBay, so u know where to drill the new holes in the shock tower. Is that basically all there is to it? or is there another thing u have to do? in addition to moving the upper control arm down and back little bit.

GypsyR · Apr 24, 2004

I might be wrong, but I get the impression the "the "special" ball joint that pro-motorsports uses" is a standard replacement balljoint. They take it out of the box, enlarge the mounting holes to fit the bolts in the "kit" and toss it back in the box.
Since I haven't (nor will I)actually purchased their kit, I can't swear to this.

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