Newbie needs advice about Heidts vs Speed Direct (steeroids)

[TaoOfStang]

Gentlemen,

I've gotten some pretty good advice here in the past, so I thought I might go to the well again. I've been trying for months to get the front end suspension/steering redone on my 68 coupe. I'm pretty comfortable doing some stuff, but cutting and welding on the frame is a couple of light years beyond my comfort zone , so I decided to employ a--tada(!)--professional. The mechanic I went to came pretty highly recommended, and I'm sure he'd do a fine job--but it's been three months already and he can't even get me onto his schedule yet. The seasons are changing, my clothing is going in and out of style, the Dolphins keep getting crappier...you get my point (I know---subtle, huh?). What makes it worse is that he uses a Heidts system, which I've already purchased for about $2k.

I found a new guy willing to take it on immediately, and he's willing to do the Heidts, but typically uses Speed Direct's Steeroids for R&P. Here are my options as I see 'em:

1) Let the new guy do the Heidt's, take my chances.

2) Let the new guy do the Steeroids, and upgrade the suspension in other ways, since that kit is just R&P.

If I go with option two, I have to try to sell the Heidts kit. So what I'd like to know (finally, the freakin' point!) is which way to go. I've got some means, so the money already out for the Heidts isn't the largest issue--I just want the best suspension, steering, etc. that I can get at a (relatively) reasonable rate. I know that the Speed Direct Steeroids system is based on the one Sixto came up with, but is it good? Will an upgraded stock suspension be bettor or worse than a new Mustang II suspension.

Thanks for any advice you can offer,

TaoOfStang
'68 Coupe

 

[reenmachine]

Where are you located?

Send me your car and I'll put the Heidt's setup in there with a 2 week turnaround.

The Heidt's kit comes with nearly foolproof instructions and is a straightforward install for someone who is comfortable chopping a car up. If you have faith in the new guy, he can probably handle it.

Will an upgraded stock suspension be bettor or worse than a new Mustang II suspension.

I dare you to do a search on this here

It's been debated to death, and the answer is.........it depends. They're different, you can do different things with them, and you can be happy with either.

 

[TaoOfStang]

I'm in Ft. Lauderdale, and I saw on your website that you're in AZ--that's a hell of a commute . I also saw the artist's rendering of that trick ride on your home page--very sweet, I hope you'll post pics when it's done!

I have searched the posts here about MII vs stock upgrades, etc., but I never found a consensus. I also went through and read some of your posts, one of which mentioned that the FR '65 Cammer car used the Heidts front end--that's a cool car. I also got the impression that your opinion is fairly well respected around here, so let me put it to you, if you're willing. I want this car to be a daily driver with some balls (350 to 400hp), and handling about as well as a car that old can. If it was you, which would you go with to get that?

TaoOfStang
'68 Coupe

 

[reenmachine]

Well, personally, on a car that's not something like a K-code or a Shelby or something, I prefer the MII setup. It's compact, effective, upgradeable, lower CG, etc. I also love having all the extra room in the engine compartment.

You can do a heck of a lot with the factory-type suspensions though, without cutting your car up. Look at HistoricMustang's site and search his posts. Keep in mind that these cars whupped ass in SCCA Production racing in the sixties with basically only A-arm mounting position, spring rates, damping, and anti-roll bar differing from stock. Today you can get all manner of massively improved A-arms, strut rods with spherical bearings, etc. as well.

You can use as radical brakes as you want with either setup.

You didn't find a consensus because there really will never be one. The bright side of that is that you will probably end up being happy either way.

Summary:
MII = trick, modern, compact, roomy engine compartment.

Mod Stock = bolt-on, can also be made to handle great, no chopped-up car. I was going to say cheaper, but if you opt for all the trick stuff that's not necessarily true.

 

[TaoOfStang]

That being the case, the fact that I already own the Heidts kit pretty much seals the deal, I think. Speaking of roomy engine compartments, I noticed on your site that you dropped in a 4.6. This is something I really wanted to do after I saw DVRestorations MIB in one of the mags. I was told that it was a nightmare to pull off. Is it? And if it is, is it worth it anyway? FYI, this is a very straight, rust-free example of the most common and unspecial of the first-gen mustangs--so I have absolutely no compunctions about making any kind of alteration. My goal is to have as modern a car as possible, in a retro shell. I have loved this style of car since I was a kid, but I've been spoiled by modern convenience & performance in the interim .

TaoOfStang
'68 coupe

 

[reenmachine]

I was told that it was a nightmare to pull off. Is it?

It's not a straightforward swap by any means, but I don't know why someone would call it a nightmare. There are repurcussions to nearly every subsystem, including structural, brakes, steering, climate control, cooling, electrical, and the rest of the driveline, but it's not rocket science.

Honestly, it's mostly done for "wow" factor, although the engine's bottom end is rock solid if you're going to go for some real horsepower.

 

[TaoOfStang]

Well, I've been looking at photos of your build for a couple hours. "Wow" factor...yeah...

If it's not pushing my luck, I'd like to get your opinion on this. Since I've decided to go with the Heidts, and the 4.6 is back on the table, I've got a couple of options, given the level of performance I want:

1) EFI 302/T5 combo. This is attractive because I can make the HP (though it probably won't be NA) w/less weight, it's a simple drop-in, and I can probably find an already "tweaked" donor car with the kit and caboodle.

2) EFI 351W/351C/T5. More cubes= . This'll do the trick. The only con is that you sort of have to get lucky as far as donors, and the ones I've seen would require a complete build-up.

3) EFI 4.6/T-45 (or maybe even the six-speed). Probably the most expensive option in terms of both money & hair, huh? Hands down the coolest, though. It looked to me like you got yours off FRP's shelf, but I'd probably want to find a likely donor. Any suggestions?

The reason I want to use a donor car is because I think I might be able to hold down costs (wiring harness, accessories, etc.). Is this completely bogus? Also, bear in mind, while the 302 is the engine I have the most experience with, and I have exactly zero knowledge about the mod motors, I don't know that this factors in all that much. Given my current schedule, I'll most likely be hiring out the labor for the engine & tranny transplant (i.e. the real work ), and sticking to the interior/exterior mods myself.

I really do appreciate you letting me pick your brain like this. FYI, I really dug your bio--leaving JPL to start a shop? Big, brass ones, man. I'm a Director of IT who's probably getting VP within the next couple of month, but I've been considering taking the plunge and starting my own business. Inspirational.

TaoOfStang

 

[reenmachine]

1) EFI 302/T5 combo. This is attractive because I can make the HP (though it probably won't be NA) w/less weight, it's a simple drop-in, and I can probably find an already "tweaked" donor car with the kit and caboodle.

Don't overlook a 302/347 stroker. This is an extremely popular option right now. You can get big power in a strong engine with a small package. 350-400 N.A. horsepower is no problem, but you'll pay for it. There are cheaper ways to go, but as an example I got a quote from Coast High Performance for a "Cobra Classic" 347 stroker EFI, which is a complete, turn-key package (computer, harnesses, etc.) with like 400 hp, 400 tq for about $10,500. It was a killer setup though.

2) EFI 351W/351C/T5. More cubes= . This'll do the trick. The only con is that you sort of have to get lucky as far as donors, and the ones I've seen would require a complete build-up.

There's a big difference between 351W and 351C. I haven't seen a lot of people running EFI Clevelands, but I don't see why not (parts availability?)...

The 351W is a good swap. It'll be easier to make the 350-400 hp you want, but then again, you could get a 351W stroked to 427 and be a total badass

3) EFI 4.6/T-45 (or maybe even the six-speed). Probably the most expensive option in terms of both money & hair, huh? Hands down the coolest, though. It looked to me like you got yours off FRP's shelf, but I'd probably want to find a likely donor. Any suggestions?

The crate engine package from FRP is rather inexpensive compared to the options above and considering what's included (everything), but if you're having someone else do the work, the cost of the required mods to the car will more than make up the difference. Then there's the challenge of finding a shop that can actually do the swap. It's not like you can buy a kit or follow a guide or something. There's a '66 Shelby G.T. 350H clone in Florida somewhere that a girl & her dad built that has a mod motor, cobra IRS, etc, that gets a ton of press -- first it had an earlier DOHC Cobra engine; now it has an '03 supercharged one. I believe they had it done in-state. Search around and I bet you'll find the name of the shop.

 

[TaoOfStang]

I have that magazine somewhere, that is a sweet ride. I've considered IRS, but I think I'll leave it until later. As far as engines, I like the stroker option you mentioned. It has the power I want, but maintains the weight ratio. I think I'll have to forego total badassdom (badassity? badassitude?) on this one--this is going to be my daily driver, and there are a lot of innocent & unsuspecting folks out there .

Thanks for helping me out with this. I hope I can return the favor at some point, although obviously on some different subject . My expertise lies in the areas of computer science, software and database design, and smart a$$ commentary. If I can be of service with regard to any of these, I'd be happy for the opportunity.

Thanks again,
TaoOfStang

 

[Snail50]

hijack on.

Tao, I'm in Miami and although I try to do all of my own work on my car, I wouldn't mind knowing of a shop in the area which can competently handle a classic Mustang...just in case I run into something I don't know how to/don't want to do. thanks.

hijack off. (er, no pun intended)

 

[TaoOfStang]

Snail,

I'm dealing with Tony at Automotive Specialists (305-957-7022). He seems like a solid guy, and the work I saw (both finished & in-progress) was first rate. So much so that I'm going to go ahead and have them put in the Heidts (sorry ). That being said, remember that I just met him in person for the first time this morning, so I can hardly recommend him. You may want to let me test the waters first, both on the shop and on the Heidts. He's supposed to be getting me his estimates (guesstimates?) next week, and says he can have the work done in a month. Yeah...he said one month . I'll keep you updated--just ask for Mr. Blue, 'cause I'll be the guy holding his breath...

It's great to have a fellow stanger in the area. It's so hard to find other people willing to pour thousands of dollars, hundreds of hours, and several pints of blood into a forty year old denial of highway safety standards, in order that they might--eventually!--be able to hurtle said tranportation down aforementioned highway at...let's be nice, and call them "unsafe" speeds . Plus, we can cry together over the Dolphins...

By the way, do you know of mustang club (or twelve-step program) in the area?

TaoOfStang

Straight, rust free '68 coupe - $6000
Heidts MII suspension still in boxes - $2500
Getting to drive the car of my dreams a whole 3/4 of a mile, so far--priceless!

For everything else there's...overtime, home loans, off track betting, etc.

 

[Snail50]

I actually laughed out loud because since I got this 67, the logical half of my brain has been incredulous that I've sunk so much time, $, and yes, blood (I've actually had to scrub my own blood off the car so that it didn't rust the metal...) on a vehicle that will never be anywhere close to the safety and comfort level found on even a base-model Kia. However, these old machines just reek style and flair (some say it's just gas fumes), something 98% of modern cars are pathetically lacking.

Thanks for the info on the shop. I'm thinking about the FR or TCP R&P conversion, but that's something I could do myself in my garage.

There is actually a Mustang club right there in Ft. Lauderdale. I think its called Ft. Lauderdale Mustang Club. I don't have any more info on them, but try a Google search. There's also a few clubs down my way. ONe is called Magic City Mustangs. You can Google that one, too, but FYI there is also a club by the same name in Oklahoma or some other place in the middle of BFE.

At least once a month the classic guys meet up at Fuddruckers way south on US1 (down past Kendall Drive). I haven't been very active in the Mustang scene because I don't have time (job, school, family, car is often torn apart, laziness), but there really is an active Mustang scene, to include classics.

Give me your email address and the next time there's a classic meet at Fudds I'll let you know. mine is Snail50(at)aol.com

Ben

 

[TaoOfStang]

Thanks for the heads up on those clubs, etc. You're absolutely right about modern cars. I gotta say, I still catch a serious thrill every time I step out my door and see my coupe. I actually can't keep that big Mr. Hankey-eatin' grin from face . Don't get me wrong, if somebody's getting me a new Z for X-mas they can keep the receipt--'cause that sucker ain't gettin' returned. But even the nice ones seem kind of...plastic, if you take my meaning. Can you really imagine a bunch of guys putting this kind of effort into a Toyota Supra forty years from now?

Gotta go now. When I started this post the Dolphins were up by ten, now it's three. They need me--pointing and screaming and annoying my neighbors .

TaoOfStang (a.k.a. Liam)
ldayan(at)comp-elite.com

 

[Snail50]

So long as you're hijacking your own thread, Liam....

I say the same thing to my wife about most modern cars: they are icons of a complacent society; they're all about cheesy, monochromatic plastic, and unimaginative cookie-cutter lines. Most of them are about as fascinating as a toaster on wheels.

I get in my 67 and I'm surrounded by surfaces made of substantial materials formed into aesthetically-pleasing contours. From the sweeping chromed curves of the instrument bezel to the door lever that looks like it was conceived by an engineer with at least some artistic talent. I get in my wife's Expedition and I almost vomit.

I was going to get an 04 Cobra last year, but got the 67 instead just because I was getting physically ill at the thought of dropping $33K on a car in which only the drivetrain was exciting.

 

[TaoOfStang]

My basic feeling is that some years ago, Madison Avenue basically took over ownership of the design process. Engineering proposes--marketing disposes, vetting (pun intended) every design so as to achieve some sort lowest common denominator, appealing to the widest demographic. I fervently hope I never fit into some group or demo guys in shiny suits learn about in some business class. Which probably means that I fit squarely into some wannabe rebel demo or something, aww crap...

That being said, there have been serious advances in the engineering of automobiles in the last almost half-century. Look, I may wax nostalgic about the aesthetics of a bygone era (sorry, I've been watching the History Channel a lot, lately ), but I'm pretty realistic about the technology. Engine efficiency, braking, suspension, metallurgy--the list of tech vastly improved upon is long.

That's why I love the idea of what we're trying to do. The thought of introducing some of the more important performance, safety, economy, etc. features of modern engineering into what I see as essentially a work of art, makes me...proud. If that's corny, so be it. I have made a conscious decision not to take the easy road, not to give in to the lemming urge to turn my thought process over to those who "know better". This likely means that I have some important genetic or perhaps nutrient deficiency, and that I should probably seek medical advice .

Plus, chicks dig cool cars .

Liam

 

[TaoOfStang]

I just reread my post and realized it turned into a rant ! Sorry, I had intended to impart, you know...actual information. First, I'm sure you're probably already aware since it's about the most viewed thread on here lately, but SN95 is doing some ridiculously cool Frankenstein (that's Frank-en-shteen!) thing with a '65 and an '03 Cobra. Second, and a little more on topic, you might want to check out the Steeroids R&P product from Speed Direct (speeddirect.com). It's bolt on with a 2.5 turning radius, which I believe is better that the options you mentioned you were considering, based on a design by Sixto Bernal who posts here sometimes. Just FYI.

Liam

 

[Snail50]

Well said, Liam. I can't think of anything further to add.

And yes, SN95's project is just disgusting in the most flattering sense of the word. I'd love to do something like that, but realistically the most freaky I'd probably ever get is stroking my 289 to a 331 with a Paxton.

Thanks for the R&P info.