Resolved Noisy Valvetrain

[PonyGTrider]

Hi all,
I’m having a noisy valvetrain on both banks more noticeable at idle.
I hope someone with the same setup as mine could give me some tips about what lifter preload you’re using.
170 cc Twisted wedge, TFS stage 1, pro magnum chrome moly 1.6 rocker arms mounted on 7/16”-20 ARP studs.

I have a maximum of 1/2 turn after zero lash. I didn’t realized up until now that the 7/16-20 studs give different preload than the 3/8-24 studs due to number of threads per inch being different.

My ride don’t se any track action so hardly sees upper power band.

I read that the chrome moly rockers are noisier that the aluminum ones please what is your opinion?

I also read in some Chevy groups that many people set the lifter preload to 0.050” - 0.060” which is at least a full turn of preload with the 7/16-20 studs without any issues with open valves or things like that and they go 450-500hp without any problems, is that for real?

So what lifter preload you guys recommend to have a smooth and quiet valvetrain without risking on floating or non closing valves? Or is there really nothing to do to alíviate that clacking noise?

I checked the roller/valve tip contact pattern and it seems to be well centered so that is good.

Thanks for the help

 

[limp]

Your 7/16 studs give a different preload than the 3/8.. Do you know which way? If its less, you might only be getting a 1/4 turn compared to the 3/8 studs?
I have always had problems with street cars and noisy lifters with 1/2 turn adjustment in my SB Chevys so I tended to use a 3/4 to 1 turn which solved the problem..
Assuming your oil pressure is good?

 

[PonyGTrider]

That is my understanding, the traveling on the studs are different:
3/8-24 1 full turn travels ~ 0.042”
7/16-20 1 full turn travels ~ 0.050”

Now what I’m finding, and don’t know why I didn’t realized this before is that the traveling on the stud is not linear with the preload traveling due to rocker ratio.

So 7/16-20 1 full turn (0.050”) will render about 0.082” of preload. Below I’m sharing where I got those numbers.

Enough of this, anybody with the same valvetrain/cam as mine, is you set up noisy as mine? Was noisy as mine? And if you solved it by adjusting the preload by how much without any issues? Considering that the plunger in the lifters bottoms out at about 0.100” travel…

By the way, my oil pressure is high 50’s cold and low 40’s fully warm 10W 30 Valvoline fully synthetic oil at idle on a mechanical gauge.
Than you all!

 

[PonyGTrider]

One more thing, I found some signs of oil in three intake runners cyl. 4 , 7, and 8 and tiny bit less in cyl 3, obviously it is coming down from the upper intake manifold. There is not a whole lot of oil but enough to wet around the ports of the two gaskets in between the 3/8" phenolic spacer and intakes.
I have a small water separator like the one for air compressor right on top of the PCV valve as an oil catch can but I guess it is too small, now I'm wondering if a water seoarator works as an oil separator... Again it is not too much oil in there but no oil at all woul be preffered. Just wanted to mention that

Thank you all

 

[General karthief]

Is the PCV hose oily on the inside?

 

[Blackhawkxx]

One thing comes to mind but I'm not saying it's your problem, I had an early pair of TFS heads and the valve guides went out with very low miles. They were noisy.

 

[PonyGTrider]

One thing comes to mind but I'm not saying it's your problem, I had an early pair of TFS heads and the valve guides went out with very low miles. They were noisy.

Not my case, the guide plates have nothing to do with lifters preload.
Thank you

 

[Blackhawkxx]

Not my case, the guide plates have nothing to do with lifters preload.
Thank you

I'm not talking about guide plates but valve guides in the heads.

 

[PonyGTrider]

Oh sorry I missunderstood, now that I have it apart I’ll check that.
Thank you

 

[PonyGTrider]

Is the PCV hose oily on the inside?

Yes it has a bit of oil

 

[General karthief]

PCV screen oily?
A bit oily is kinda vague to me, a dirty residue is normal after some miles, visible oil in the hose is not except for after a hole lotta miles, over 100k yeah but not a few hundred. You'll have to assess the evidence, is it sucking oil in the PCV or the intake gasket, it's not a worn out engine puffing smoke out the oil filler tube right?
I have seen roller rockers toss oil up the oil filler tube and get sucked into the TB when the stock valve cover oil fill baffle has been removed, not so much with mild mods but somethings to investigate before you rip it apart.

 

[Bullitt347]

What brand/make lifter is in the engine?
Some are trash.
A excellent quality lifter can solve a lot of these issues..

 

[PonyGTrider]

PCV screen oily?
A bit oily is kinda vague to me, a dirty residue is normal after some miles, visible oil in the hose is not except for after a hole lotta miles, over 100k yeah but not a few hundred. You'll have to assess the evidence, is it sucking oil in the PCV or the intake gasket, it's not a worn out engine puffing smoke out the oil filler tube right?
I have seen roller rockers toss oil up the oil filler tube and get sucked into the TB when the stock valve cover oil fill baffle has been removed, not so much with mild mods but somethings to investigate before you rip it apart.

Yeah the PCV screen has some oil so it must be sucking some oil mist thru the PCV valve not thru the intake gaskets.
The throttle body is dry and no signs of oil. Right now I have the valve covers and upper intake removed because I’m troubleshooting a noisy valve train problem, maybe have to add a little more lifter preload.
At this point I will do a more extensive investigation on that oily runners issue.

Thank you

 

[PonyGTrider]

What brand/make lifter is in the engine?
Some are trash.
A excellent quality lifter can solve a lot of these issues..

I have CompCams 1.6 Pro Magnum 7/16” roller rockers

 

[limp]

What brand of oil filter do you run?

 

[AeroCoupe]

I think Bullit347 was referring to the lifter brand not the rocker brand.

My setup is Scorpion 1.6 rockers on 3/8" ARP studs with Jomar stud girdles, Ford Performance M-6500-R302H lifters, custom length pushrods, Isky 8005A valve springs with titanium retainers and keepers, and Manley stainless steel valves all installed on Edelbrock Performer RPM heads that have been ported. Cam is an Ed Curtis grind that is pretty aggressive. Oil is 10W40 Brad Penn.

So with all of that I cannot get the valve train noise out of the motor. Swapped rockers, lifters, and have tried all kinds of preload. Engine builder said that sometimes they will have a little noise. We have chalked it up to the dynamics of this motor and moved on. It runs hard and makes great power so I just don't worry about it anymore.

Thunderbird has ported AFR heads with 3/8" ARP studs and Comp Cams girdles, Comp Pro Magnum rockers and lifters that I bought back in the late 90's (believe the quality has dropped off since then but that is me), Comp roller cam that is also pretty aggressive, custom push rods, Isky 8005A springs, titanium retainers and keepers, and Manley stainless steel valves. Again, oil is Brad Penn 10W40 and this motor has almost no valve train noise.

I get valve noise from the headers on both cars (more so on the T-Bird but it has 1-7/8" primaries) but that is common and is a different sound vs lifter / rocker arm noise. I will also say that when I swapped to the Edelbrock Performer RPM II upper and lower on the Mustang vs. the Cobra upper and lower there was a slight increase in valve train noise under the hood. Both setups had 1" spacers but the Cobra setup had a phenolic spacer where the Edelbrock setup has an aluminum spacer. I also run the tall Motorsport aluminum valve covers to clear the girdles but I have no idea if that adds to amplifying the existing noise or not.

I will say that I have run and will continue to run Ford oil filters. Too many gimmicks and BS about oil filters out there and the Ford FL-1A's just work.

Anyhow, good luck but I gave up on the noise stuff a couple of years ago on the Mustang and just enjoy the car.

 

[PonyGTrider]

What brand/make lifter is in the engine?
Some are trash.
A excellent quality lifter can solve a lot of these issues

I have ford performance M-6500-R302, don’t know if the M-6500-R302H will make a huge difference

 

[PonyGTrider]

What brand of oil filter do you run?

I have Bosch for synthetic oil Valvoline 10W 30

 

[PonyGTrider]

I think Bullit347 was referring to the lifter brand not the rocker brand.

My setup is Scorpion 1.6 rockers on 3/8" ARP studs with Jomar stud girdles, Ford Performance M-6500-R302H lifters, custom length pushrods, Isky 8005A valve springs with titanium retainers and keepers, and Manley stainless steel valves all installed on Edelbrock Performer RPM heads that have been ported. Cam is an Ed Curtis grind that is pretty aggressive. Oil is 10W40 Brad Penn.

So with all of that I cannot get the valve train noise out of the motor. Swapped rockers, lifters, and have tried all kinds of preload. Engine builder said that sometimes they will have a little noise. We have chalked it up to the dynamics of this motor and moved on. It runs hard and makes great power so I just don't worry about it anymore.

Thunderbird has ported AFR heads with 3/8" ARP studs and Comp Cams girdles, Comp Pro Magnum rockers and lifters that I bought back in the late 90's (believe the quality has dropped off since then but that is me), Comp roller cam that is also pretty aggressive, custom push rods, Isky 8005A springs, titanium retainers and keepers, and Manley stainless steel valves. Again, oil is Brad Penn 10W40 and this motor has almost no valve train noise.

I get valve noise from the headers on both cars (more so on the T-Bird but it has 1-7/8" primaries) but that is common and is a different sound vs lifter / rocker arm noise. I will also say that when I swapped to the Edelbrock Performer RPM II upper and lower on the Mustang vs. the Cobra upper and lower there was a slight increase in valve train noise under the hood. Both setups had 1" spacers but the Cobra setup had a phenolic spacer where the Edelbrock setup has an aluminum spacer. I also run the tall Motorsport aluminum valve covers to clear the girdles but I have no idea if that adds to amplifying the existing noise or not.

I will say that I have run and will continue to run Ford oil filters. Too many gimmicks and BS about oil filters out there and the Ford FL-1A's just work.

Anyhow, good luck but I gave up on the noise stuff a couple of years ago on the Mustang and just enjoy the car.

Woah, maybe sometimes we have to settle with what we have and that’s what I do. At times I just ignore the ticking tapping and then all of a sudden it bothers the hell out of me.
It seems you went the extra mile to eliminate that unwanted noise without much success. I have lifters M-6500-R302 and don’t know how much better the M-6500-R302H are.
Since mine is a street ride I will add a bit more lifters preload, I’m thinking going to shy of 3/4 turn after zero will render about 0.060” at the lifter which is at the top of the 0.020” - 0.060” theoretical spec.
After that and if it doesn’t work well I’ll leave it like that and forget about it.

It has been vastly discussed about what valve setup method works the best I’m using the TDC/firing order, if that makes any difference…

Thanks for sharing your experiences

 

[PonyGTrider]

Woah, maybe sometimes we have to settle with what we have and that’s what I do. At times I just ignore the ticking tapping and then all of a sudden it bothers the hell out of me.
It seems you went the extra mile to eliminate that unwanted noise without much success. I have lifters M-6500-R302 and don’t know how much better the M-6500-R302H are.
Since mine is a street ride I will add a bit more lifters preload, I’m thinking going to shy of 3/4 turn after zero will render about 0.060” at the lifter which is at the top of the 0.020” - 0.060” theoretical spec.
After that and if it doesn’t work well I’ll leave it like that and forget about it.

It has been vastly discussed about what valve setup method works the best I’m using the TDC/firing order, if that makes any difference…

Thanks for sharing your experiences

I’d read somewhere that the aluminum rockers run quiet compared with the chrome moly ones like the pro magnums but don’t know if that is for real.
I noticed that my rockers have a tiny axial play and when moving them sideways by hand definitely there is a tick which absolutely multiplays with the dynamic speed.