OEM Ford vs Standalone ECM?

[ggradtech]

A long time ago, with a different car, I had a Megasquirt system. I struggled with it and eventually just had my A9P reinstalled and had it chipped/dyno tuned. That car had a turbo though.
Today, I have a NA 351 swap car. I have an OEM Ford A9P (non-chipped currently). The standalone systems are big $ from what I've read. Is it really a necessity to have an aftermarket system for a street car? I realize that old wiring and an old ECM can have issues, but can't they be figured out and remedied? Today a tuning shop pretty much insulted my using an OEM ECM/wiring harness. He said basically that the car is old and that the Ford OEM computer/wiring harness can't be trusted to work properly ir reliably. This seemed pretty harsh to me and my gut instinct says that this is complete BS. Maybe he just wants to make a profit selling those standalone new units? I'm sure they are really nice, but for a NA street car, are they really worth the investment?

 

[Wayne Waldrep]

It would be great if this was in your other thread. It's the same discussion and would help not to have to look back and forth for info. @Noobz347 could combine them....I think.

 

[General karthief]

Since you are looking for opinions I will give you my car as an example. It's just an ugly driver, nothin special just fun to drive, the usual bolt on stuff. I did replace the distributor a long time ago but have put 50k miles on it with no problems, I do not cut the ride any slack, I toss it sideways in first an can get a good stretch of rubber in second, (cheap rear tires) and I do it often. I need to fix a couple environmental problems, coolant leak at the timing cover and an oil leak at the back of the intake, aside from that I would drive it anywhere.
The stock ignition/computer system is just fine.
The problems with this stuff is likely from people that don't know and/or have no patience to fix it right.
JMO and not based on any real mechanical ability.

 

[Noobz347]

He said basically that the car is old and that the Ford OEM computer/wiring harness can't be trusted to work properly ir reliably

He is not wrong. These cars (holy ) are over 30 years old, the harnesses were never great to begin with. All who came before you cut, spliced, and otherwise on the entire thing for 30 years.

I would imagine that he's seen his share of Fox wire harnesses come through.

It is getting to be that age where folks who are serious about keeping these cars are also thinking about a complete re-wire too. I know I am.

 

[96pushrod]

Imo the stock eec and harness was very advanced for it’s day, and still is a great platform. It’s tough to beat some of the systems that are out today though. Honestly, I wish I had someone to convince me to just go with a megasquirt/microsquirt or Holley system when I built my car. When I did my first microsquirt ls I could tell it was just easier to tune. There’s also just so much that can be done, especially with boost and nitrous. Built in 2-steps are nice as well.

I don’t think the factory harnesses are all that much of a downside. Shoot mines still in great shape, so I’ll be reusing it for my plug n play. I also have a spare in my parts area if I need anything off it. Most all the connectors you can still buy new as well.

I can tell you this much: if you’re willing to spend $400-500 for a quarterhorse package from a vendor, just pony up a couple hundred more and get a pimp or ms pnp setup. If you ever plan on going boosted or nitrous down the road, or even if you plan on upgrading your n/a setup, it’s superior. Plus you can sell your stock ecu and your MAF and recoup some of the money you spent.

 

[Habu135]

When I had my car tuned a few months ago I was told the stock computers (ECM) were some of the last to be hand soldered and that over time the resisters will fail and the soldering points will crack. I was encouraged to pick up another ECM which I may do at some point. These cars are fairly bullet proof though.

 

[ggradtech]

When you swap your car with a "standalone" system, you are not really replacing everything electrical or engine related. I know a MegaSquirt PSPNP2 basically plugs in to your OEM harness. You still have an older wiring harness though. Sure, the ECM is now new, but it kinda like taking a shower and putting on dirty underwear. Weird analogy, I know.
I don't know about the Holley system. I think that one includes a wiring harness as well. They are big $ though. When using a system like a "Holley" (not sure if there are others like it?) Do you still maintain the OEM ECM for other functions like headlights, horn, radio, etc?

 

[General karthief]

Holley systems are designed for retro fitting in a carbed setup.
I believe they have nothing to do with whatever computer is in the car,

 

[stanglx2002]

I have personally done all the systems in my (2) 88 GT's:

I first did the Mass Air conversion with a A3M computer, which it ran pretty good 15 years ago. I did this when I dropped in the 331 stroker in the car, which was way more than the stock SD Computer was going to be able to handle.

I then went to with a Moates Quarterhorse, and was great to be able to tune the car for what it wants. This was a good system with free software available for tuning, and was fairly cheap plugging the chip right into the stock computer. I was quite worried on the 30 year old computer as I have already done the capacitor replacement on the ECU's before. I also wanted more from the system than it could provide like a Digital Dash, Transmission Controller connectivity, WMeth , etc

I then went with a MS2PNP, which IMO is even better being able to provide me with my end goal of the items above, but giving me even more options of installing additional sensors oil pressure, fuel level, etc directly to the MS. I can then datalog these additional inputs, while also providing additional outputs that will be used to trigger the WMeth system, Boost levels High/Low, paddle shifters, etc. The abilities of the MS system are quite large, so it really depends on the end goals you have for the car to pick the right system for you.

 

[ggradtech]

I had previously used an MSPNP2 on a turbo notch I once had. I had a lot of difficulty getting the tune dialed in. I even took it to a local dyno shop that said they tuned thst system. He never could get it dialed in. Maybe that was just a bad shop though. I also had issues getting the Microsquirt to run my A.C. in that car. It is nice that it bolts directly to the OEM wiring harness. Since this was a few years ago, I'm also guessing there is a better foundation of knowledge now compared to back then. It would be nice if there was a new wiring harness made. Using an MSPNP2 removes the old ECM, but you still have a really old main wiring harness in your car. Maybe the harness itself doesn't "fail" anyways. I guess if you have a problem with your OEM harness, you could replace the problem wire and swap it out.

 

[90sickfox]

If you check all the needed wires in the harness you'll be ok with mspnp2. There's a bunch of knowledge here.

 

[Blown88GT]

...Since this was a few years ago, I'm also guessing there is a better foundation of knowledge now compared to back then...

There is...right here,

Digital Self-tuning Forum

This forum is for those members building or tuning their own vehicles. What you will NOT find in this forum is information concerning hand-held tuners containing off-the-shelf or "canned tunes".

www.stangnet.com

 

[TOOLOW91]

Holley systems are designed for retro fitting in a carbed setup.
I believe they have nothing to do with whatever computer is in the car,

Wrong , the HP , Dominator and Terminator x are all stand alone systems . My car has a holley in it . So does the blue race car I built as well as nicks 84 ttop car .
The new terminator x is more entry level and has a actual ford specific harness now .

 

[General karthief]

Thanks, I guess I go some catch'n up to do on those things.

 

[junkyardwarrior]

Have you looked at the PiMP system? (stinger-performance.com)

I like the OEM stuff, it'll support a NA 351 just fine but will need a tune for sure which means QH. The QH has a battery onboard, and it can go dead, thus I suggest getting a chip to plug into the J3 and having the tune burned to it, remove the QH, install the chip and rock on.

There's a good bit of support for it too, efidynotuning.com is a good start. Download the free software, tunerpro RT. It works pretty good. Binary Editor is slightly easier to use (for me) but it's also expensive. On efidynotuning, you can get them to work with your tune remotely and get it pretty close. I haven't done that yet. Also the nice thing about OEM is that it will still spit out codes if something is out of kilter which helps you diagnose problems a little easier. Lastly, it's OEM stuff and can be replaced readily from parts-stores. You aren't likely to do that with a standalone unless you keep log of what parts interchange and their numbers.

 

[AUBURN1111]

I use the MSPNP2, my wiring is pretty good, but if thats your major concern you could always use a painless performance wiring kit and remove any emissions or non essential circuits?

 

[ggradtech]

I think my wiring is good too. I'm just thinking ahead basically. I think I'd probably give the Megasquirt another try. The Painless sounds like a great idea too. My car has no emissions, and the dash guages are all aftermarket. What about other functions besides the engine? Door lights, headlights, A.C., etc. Does this stuff get incorporated into a Painless system?

 

[stanglx2002]

These guys are great for wiring harnesses if you are looking as well. They carry everything you probably would want.

Ron Francis Wiring

Wiring Harnesses, Electric Fan Controls, Accessories, Grounding, Lighting, Switches, Fuel Injection Harnesses, Wiring Aids and More!

www.ronfrancis.com

 

[AUBURN1111]

Its worth a call to them, I know they offer a kit for the engine, not sure about a dash harness or the rest of the vehicle for that matter.

 

[a91what]

If you do decide to go the route of a MS2pnp I have one for sale, even comes with a wideband and my tuning services. I have it listed in the classifieds.