oil pump installation?

[BerniniCaCO3]

Asking this as a separate thread, since I'm thinking about doing this tomorrow, and my post about my low oil pressure is an essay that some won't slog through.

Basically, I rebuilt an engine, and the oil pressure is not nought (I think/hope/pray), but is very low. From the oil idiot light flickering, around 6psi @2500rpm. My sunpro gauge reads 0psi, but it's also being fed with 10V and not 14V, so it won't read right anyway.

Lots of upper engine noise as a result, the lifters never pump up to take up the slack.

Here's what I'm wondering... because i had left out the driveshaft on initial installation 2 months ago (it's been an on/off project), I had to drop the oil pan and R&R the pump in order to get the driveshaft in there.

I didn't get the pan out: my method to save time was to crank the engine up 5 inches, drop the pan 5 inches, giving enough room to undo the 4 bolts to pull the pump, put in the shaft, reinstall.

I didn't leave a gasket or a bolt lying on the work bench.
Just guessing from my own strength and comparing to times I've used the torque wrench and deducting for the awkward working position, I probably put 15 lb-ft of torque on the bolts that hold in the oil pump. I don't remember that there were ever lock washers on those bolts.

Is there any way a gasket might have blown out, or a bolt worked loose, and it's pissing oil right at the pump?

I've a friend who works at a dealer, and they can work on their own cars after hours. I'm considering having it towed there, and we'll R&R the pump a second time and see what's up. If I find the pump hanging a little loose, a bolt in the pan, a gasket blown out, then I have my answer and might even be able to drive the car away tomorrow night.

But if it's very hard to screw up the pump, then I'll be paying for a tow to the shop and a tow away again, wasting $130 on a red herring.

Also wondering if I do this over, if there are any other procedures to be aware of, like if the bolts need more torque than I gave them, or lock washers, or if I want sealant on the gaskets, or should pack the pump with vaseline to prime it? (I just poured oil in and turned it a few times to prime it)

And what's the proper way to set the little retaining umbrella on the driveshaft? I think it was just about 1.5" down from the top, something kinda random.

 

[mob]

Unless the pump is seized up I dont see any reason to drop the pan again. How can you accurately tell it is at 6psi with the gauge on the dash? it is literally impossible. And I dont understand why your gauge is only getting 10V? Get a working gauge on there before you make any drastic decisions.

 

[BerniniCaCO3]

OK, the oil light isn't at all accurate?
'cause it never came on before the rebuild...

And the engine does make I-don't-have-oil kindof noises at the top end.

...but, it COULD be the lifters, couldn't it?

Let me check the actual oil pressure then.


I tapped into a wire off one of the harnesses by the multifunction switch/steering column. It's a hot on accessory or run, the hot that I want to use-- taking a wire straight from the battery would cause the gauge to always be on.

I also hooked up a tach, and a voltmeter.
The voltmeter is accurate at least to a half a volt, I checked by wiring it straight across the battery.
And the voltmeter gauge reads 10V

So best guess, after 20 years, there's some high resistance somewhere in this hot I've tapped, or just too much load on the wire and it's dropping voltage. My own solders ought to be pretty decent.
Anyway, whatever the reason, voltmeter says 10V and it's on the same hot as the oil pressure gauge, which therefore should also be getting 10V. Everything's in parallel as it should be.

 

[mob]

I saw your other post, I was unaware that this vehicle was not a mustang. I thought you had a gauge not a light. Regardless I would still find out exactly what your oil pressure is at before doing anything crazy. I believe you can go to a parts store and buy a mechanical oil pressure gauge for about 15 bucks. Even if you dont mount it anywhere, I would just install it and leave it hanging there temporarily and just take a peak at what the oil pressure is. Then go from there.

 

[BerniniCaCO3]

awright, will do so
Hey, is the driveshaft 1/4"? Maybe I can just use a drill extension (and avoid doing any further possible damage to the engine by running it) to spin the pump?

Just realized that I can use a relay from my accessory hot, then a direct line from the battery, to fix this low voltage... for the future, next week if I get my oil issue fixed . Electrical rewiring isn't my priority right now.

 

[mob]

Yes the oil pump drive shaft is 1/4", you will need a 1/4" drive deep socket though because a 3/8" drive will not fit in the hole.

 

[Rick 91GT]

The pump shaft on a 302 is 1/4", the pump turns counterclockwise.
The gasket between the pump and block is thin and very important same goes for the.gasket between the pump and pickup tube,i prefer to blue loctite the fasteners. Also make sure the pickup is about .50" off the bottom of the pan. If you do not get oil up to every rocker you mayhave blown a oil galley plug on the front of the block, typically if this happens you do not get oil to one side of the motor/head.

 

[BerniniCaCO3]

Thanks.
I'll try to check the pickup height if I can.
How much torque on those bolts, and would you use a lockwasher?
I like the idea of locktite the next go around.

Can the surfaces have any oil on them, or, would that allow oil to start breaking down the gasket, and I want it dry on the mated edges, even acetone-wiped sort of dry?

Any reason to give into the temptation to put in a high volume pump next time?

The driver side (the grand marquis has the intake flipped the other way around) valve cover is the easiest to pull; if I do pull both though, you're right, that would give some idea if it's galley plugs. Might as well just go straight for the galley plugs though (if the oil pump doesn't look badly installed/ the new, new oil pump doesn't help things).

Can I take it from the mere droplets of oil under the bellhousing, and not arterial flow dripping onto the pavement, that the rear oil galley plugs are all dandy?

Can I take it from the oil in the filter, that I had *some* flow and maybe my engine isn't destroyed yet?

 

[Rick 91GT]

Thanks.
I'll try to check the pickup height if I can.
How much torque on those bolts, and would you use a lockwasher?
I like the idea of locktite the next go around.

Can the surfaces have any oil on them, or, would that allow oil to start breaking down the gasket, and I want it dry on the mated edges, even acetone-wiped sort of dry?

Any reason to give into the temptation to put in a high volume pump next time?

The driver side (the grand marquis has the intake flipped the other way around) valve cover is the easiest to pull; if I do pull both though, you're right, that would give some idea if it's galley plugs. Might as well just go straight for the galley plugs though (if the oil pump doesn't look badly installed/ the new, new oil pump doesn't help things).

Can I take it from the mere droplets of oil under the bellhousing, and not arterial flow dripping onto the pavement, that the rear oil galley plugs are all dandy?

Can I take it from the oil in the filter, that I had *some* flow and maybe my engine isn't destroyed yet?

If your using the stock bolts they have lockwashers that are contained to the bolts (they don't come off), if you are using ARP bolts they have a flat washer, I have used other grade 8 bolts with lockwashers as well. They are nearly impossible to TQ due to the location, make them tight. The surface should be dry and clean and the old gasket needs to be scraped off, if the mating surfaces are not good it will bleed the pressure right off and leak at the flange.

High Volume pump shouldnt be needed unless you have increased bearing clearances.

You might want to check and change the oil filter as well, if the bypass valve sticks it will give you low oil pressure.

Back galley plugs are thread in, I am sure they are fine..the front plugs are press in (I tap and thread these on the motors I build), along with the top cross over plug that is sandwhiched at the back side of the block.

Good Luck!

 

[BerniniCaCO3]

Thanks!
I'm taking it to a friend with a lift on Wednesday, will be much easier than on my back.
Really hoping it's the pump; possibility #2 is of course the plugs in front.

Two questions.

1) If it isn't the pump, and I go back and check the galley plugs under the timing cover and one has popped out, do I need to do any drilling, or is the diameter already perfect to accept a pipe tap? If so, what size?

2) I may have already mentioned that I had to change out the pump once before. I did the engine as part of a class, and the instructor was a chevy guy, so I only found out after installing the engine that the driveshaft had to come up from the bottom.
Under his supervision, we raised the car on a lift, removed the 2 bolts from the engine mounts, and jacked up the engine by the harmonic balancer.
I was going to do this again, this wednesday, but on another forum I was told this is a very bad idea.
How likely is it, having done it once already, that I've done any damage to the crankshaft by using it as a lift point for the engine? Do I need to get the pan all the way out and pull the crank and inspect bearings?? Seems to me that the crank is 1.25" solid iron right up against bearings, right up against more iron, and ought to hold 300-400#, seemed that way to the instructor too or he wouldn't have said it was fine as a lift point; but the other forum replies have made me nervous.

Net time I might just get a support bar for wednesday.

 

[Rick 91GT]

If one of the front plugs popped out, you need to pull the timing set off, then get a new plug from your local machine shop. Clean the surface, then use a loctite retainig compound on it and tap it in, then I swedge three sides to keep it there (you'll see the marks on the stock one). Taps in like a freeze plug.

I responded to your thread, you most likely didnt do any damage to the crank, it would be a long shot to hurt the front bearing as well. Ive seen snouts snap off on boosted set-up'd even with a forged crank. The amount of stress on them is intense.

 

[BerniniCaCO3]

"Clean the surface, then use a loctite retainig compound on it and tap it in, then I swedge three sides to keep it there (you'll see the marks on the stock one). Taps in like a freeze plug."

What do you mean by swedge three sides? I'd thrown out the stock one a long time ago, can't remember that it looked any different.
When I installed 'em, I just tapped them right on in with a small socket or a punch maybe, and with some thread sealant I believe. Stopped when they bottomed out with a *ping*.
Did you flatten 3 sides a little for grip, is that what swedge means?

I've heard of people making the front plugs into tapped, tapered plumber's/pipe plugs, just like the back ones, to avoid the risk of their popping out. If I do the pump (tomorrow night, most likely!) and I find that it doesn't fix it, pull the timing cover and find my culprit, I'd be interested in tapping those holes; wondering if I had to do any boring or if the cast hole will accept a pipe thread tap as is, and what size/pitch (I don't know my pipe threads well) to use, and maybe if I could do that probably awkwardly, with the engine in place....

 

[BerniniCaCO3]

yeah, it didn't vibrate, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I'll look for metal bits or anything serious when the pan's dropped. Lots of noise from the rockers though; with my oil pressure, the lifters only pumped up a very little bit.

 

[Rick 91GT]

Basically you take a screw driver or a dull edge punch and smack the edge in threee spots to help retain it, you can see the marks on most stock plugs. They tap in just past the champher edge in the block.

1/8"NPT will tap and install with no drilling, if you do it make sure you pack the tape with grease to help catch shavings....I have never done this in a running engine, only bare block on the stand before I machine and build them.